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Thread: A little experiment with my 91 Argentine

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    A little experiment with my 91 Argentine

    So I was finishing up at the range and decided to experiment with single loaded rounds vs. magazine fed rounds fired. I found that the mag fed seemed to shoot a little tighter..... hmmmmm...

    1891 Argentine Mauser
    Norma 7.65x53 brass
    WLR primers
    16.5 grains IMR-4227
    2.900” OAL

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    Ok. I will have to download the other target later. Having some difficulties.

  3. #3
    Boolit Bub Flophound's Avatar
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    First thing that comes to my mind is maybe it had something to do with heat. The rounds in the mag would be exposed somewhat to the heat generated by the round being fired and if you're doing fairly quick follow up shots, the chamber would conceivably be hotter when they go in as well. What strike me as odd is that the big thing i know about heat is that when guns get really hot, like machine guns getting hot, they start spitting the rounds out with far less accuracy.
    Maybe that amount of heat is a sweet spot. Warms 'em just a little so they fit tighter in the chamber?
    This of course is pure conjecture. I have no idea the rapidity b y which you were shooting. Maybe having a mag of them let you keep more concentration on the target. So could be mechanical, could be the operator.
    This interests me and any more info you could provide about the methodology along with the second target you mentioned would be great to see.
    Thanks for the puzzle!
    Cheers,
    flop

  4. #4
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    1891 Argentine Mauser
    Norma 7.65x53 brass
    WLR primers
    16.5 grains IMR-4227
    2.900” OAL

    what boolit were you using

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    ARs have the same problem. It's alignment in the chamber. Even 'riding' the handle in AR will blow the group.
    Whatever!

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have no idea why this other pic will not load. Chapping my fanny!!!! Sorry, forgot bullet info.

    314299 sized to .313
    2500 lube
    Gas checked
    50 lead/50 Linotype

    I used about a 30 second cadence between shots on both single feed and mag fed. After firing the 5 single feed shots I waited 5 minutes then began the mag fed experiment.

    I know the wisdom with Garands is the first round that you have to feed into the chamber will be a little different poi than the other 7 that are worked over by action.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Could be that when cycling the loaded rounds through the magazine the powder ends up in the front of the case rather than up near the primer. Could very well be wrong on this. Frank

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    [IMG][/IMG]

    There it is. Finally. This is the target I shot using magazine fed rounds. Same range and the same POA as the single loaded one seen above. Tighter and about an inch lower. I recall Harris saying something about using the magazine when he is shooting when he wrote “The Load”.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    When shooting from the bench loading from the magazine most often gives a much more uniform and consistent positioning of the powder when the cartridge is chambered. With smaller reduced charges of powder in large cases [such as 16.5 gr 4227 in the 7.65 Argentine case] powder positioning is not consistent when single loading unless one takes care to do so.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  10. #10
    Boolit Master nueces5's Avatar
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    What it says about the positioning of the gunpowder is very interesting.
    I have tried to be as careful as possible when load with boolits, to obtain the highest possible precision.
    What do you think is the best system to charge and always stay the same?

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have tried this experiment with other bolt guns as well since this and I have all had tighter groups with loading from the magazine. I don’t ***** foot the bolt getting it in battery but, I don’t run it hard like I am returning enemy fire either.

    The results have been consistently a little tighter.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Mark Daiute's Avatar
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    range to target? forgive me if I missed it!

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    I started at 50 yards. However, it has been consistently tighter at 100 and 200 yards as well. YMMV.

  14. #14
    Boolit Man
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    That is a pretty dramatic demonstration...thanks for sharing your experience. I think everybody pretty well agrees...let autoloaders autoload. But bolt guns? You could'a cleaned out my wallet on that bet (not that you'd be getting much).

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks Flintlocke. I would have never guessed the results either.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master 444ttd's Avatar
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    i bought a 91 argie this this year. i have the dies and the cases and boolits(lee c312 r) but i don't have time.
    Ad Reipublicae his Civitatum Foederatarum Americae, ego sum fortis et libero. Ego autem non exieris ad impios communistarum socialismi. Ora imagines in vestri demented mentem, quod vos mos have misericordia, quia non.

    To the Republic of these United States of America, I am strong and free. I will never surrender to godless communist socialism. Pray to images in your demented mind, that you will have mercy, because i will not.

    MOLON LABE

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy Argentino's Avatar
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    Using some type of filler such as kapok might help with position sensitive loads. It might be worth trying.

    Argie.
    "Skill is acquired not alone through practice but through the combination of study and experience" - P. Sharpe

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to see the experiment repeated using a powder positioner like Dacron or a filler like kapok as Argie suggests.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  19. #19
    Boolit Master 444ttd's Avatar
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    i shoot a 444 marlin in my tc encore(23" mgm barrel) with 300gr fn gc and 24.0gr of 2400/tuft of dacron and it goes about 3/4 - 1" at 100 yards(5 shots/bench). before i used dacron it would go 2 - 3" at 100 yards. (if you would take the "fliers" out, it would be 1 1/2 - 2"). when JES was finished with my win m94 in 35/30-30, i used 20.0gr of 2400 and a tuft of dacron with a 200gr fn gc. i didn't even do without dacron and i think it goes ok.......2 shots, move peep, 2 shots........
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_20191127_154503.jpg  
    Ad Reipublicae his Civitatum Foederatarum Americae, ego sum fortis et libero. Ego autem non exieris ad impios communistarum socialismi. Ora imagines in vestri demented mentem, quod vos mos have misericordia, quia non.

    To the Republic of these United States of America, I am strong and free. I will never surrender to godless communist socialism. Pray to images in your demented mind, that you will have mercy, because i will not.

    MOLON LABE

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    Certainly the powder position is one possibility, but what about feeding? I've been warned about single-loading many different mil-surps, as it can stress the extractor in controlled-feed systems; it would seem that single-loading could also lead to different positioning as the extractor snaps into place. Having said that, I've single-loaded both of my 91's without problems, and haven't really noticed a difference in accuracy (though I'd usually be using a larger charge of 4227.)

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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GC Gas Check