Did I overload .327 FedMag with 4227?

[larry44]

I loaded 20 rounds of .327 Federal Magnum with 11.5gr of IMR 4227 and a 115gr Badlands FN boolit. The powder is slightly compressed.

That load is fine (according to published data) for a 100gr boolit but after loading I realized I did so with the 115gr.

Is this safe to send downrange? Shooting a 4.625" Ruger Single Seven. Thanks for your advice!

[DougGuy]

What does the data say for the 115gr boolit? If you don't see any data it's usually because that boolit and powder combination aren't recommended or could be an unsafe load.

Like looking for data with Unique for a 300gr boolit in 45 Colt. There is no published data for that load because it's not recommended.

it's much better to stop and look, ask around, than assume it is okay so you did the right thing by waiting and asking.

[dangitgriff]

Lyman’s 50th shows a compressed max load of 12.3 grains of 4227 under a Speer 100 grain JHP giving 1214 fps and 33,600 psi.

They list their #311008 115 grain cast bullet over a max load of 11.7 grains of Accurate #9 with 1436 fps and 43,600 psi.

Primers are Federal 100 SPP. Test barrel is 3”, universal receiver.

If it was my Blackhawk...I’d shoot it, and make Elmer proud.

[DougGuy]

You are probably good with 11.5gr 4227 under the 115gr boolit. 4227 is right close to H110 in burn rate, and loads list up to 12.4gr H110 for a 115gr Speer j-word, but no pressure figures are given. It is assumed that pressure is within the 45,000psi SAAMI spec for the cartridge.

About the most important thing to look for when extrapolating load data, is where the base of the boolit is when the round is assembled. If the weights are relatively close, but one boolit sits considerably deeper in the case this could lead to an over pressure event, and you would need to adjust the load data to prevent this. If weights are relatively close and the base of the both boolits sits about the same place in the case when assembled, you are usually safe using the data for one boolit with both boolits.

[dragon813gt]

If you give me the case length, bullet length and cartridge over all length I can run it in Quickload. I don’t trust the predictions for straight wall cases like I do w/ bottle necks but we can call the prediction a sanity check.

I ran it w/ some of my data for the same pistol. Case length - 1.200 / OAL - 1.510 / NOE 315-115-SWC which is 0.655 long.
PMAX is 31,527#, slightly below warning, at a velocity of 1200 fps. 11.5 grains is 110.5% fill if the case capacity is 19 grains of water. You’re not going to get an OAL longer than that. It’s the absolute max I can squeeze out of any of my Single 7s.

[dtknowles]

What were your previous loads for this bullet and powder combination? Were they almost as much powder as you are using now? You aren't starting with what might be a Max load, right?

The load is probably fine but usually for undocumented powder/bullet combinations I like to work up to max in a couple steps shooting thru a chronograph.

Tim

[larry44]

Case is 1.193"
Boolit is 0.652"
OAL is 1.479"
Primer is CCI #500

BTW - I'm in Pittsburgh

[larry44]

I've used 11.4, 11.5, 11.6, 11.7, 11.8, and 11.9. All with good success and no problems but I was using a 100gr boolit. However, this time I substituted a 115gr boolit and neglected to consider in advance how that would affect the pressure; this boolit has a substantially increased length. Before sending them downrange I thought it would be prudent to check here, first.

[dangitgriff]

Dtknowles gave you a great answer. Work up some ladder loads at 10, 10.5, 11 & check for pressure signs along the way. If nothing shows itself by the 11.0 load, you are probably good to go for your 11.5’s.
R/Griff

[larry44]

Great idea!

[DougGuy]

this boolit has a substantially increased length. Before sending them downrange I thought it would be prudent to check here, first.

This is what I was wanting to illustrate in my earlier post. If you can compare your 115gr boolit with the Speer 115gr bullet in the published load data, and determine the difference in the length, that is IF you can find a drawing or someone here uses the same bullet and can measure for you, THEN you can determine where the base of each boolit sits in the case.

The 327 operates at a very high pressure, so even inconsequential variations in case volume can drastically alter pressures. For instance, the 9mm maxes out at 35kpsi, and in an autoloader which rams the boolit into the feed ramp it is possible to experience boolit setback where the base of the boolit is driven down into the case and if a load is already at max, even as little as .010" of setback can send pressures soaring.

Applying this same school of thought to the 327 would be a viable approach and a good reason to get measurements for both boolits and check to make sure you aren't reducing case volume with a cast boolit and using load data published for a jacketed bullet without compensating for the variable.

Otoh, at 11.5gr you are probably safe, since that would not be a max load for that boolit weight but it would be both practical and prudent to know for sure.

[larry44]

Thank you!

[dragon813gt]

Case is 1.193"
Boolit is 0.652"
OAL is 1.479"
Primer is CCI #500

At 11.5 grains you are at 33,994 psi according to Quickload. This is in warning territory. Velocity is 1221 fps. That charge is a 114.2% fill so it’s certainly compressed. If you worked up to this load w/ a chronograph you can compare velocities. I take no responsibility for any of this information, just typing what QL predicted.

[larry44]

Went shooting with the suspect loads. Shot 4227 loads with 10.0gr, 10.5gr, 11.0gr and the 11.5 load that I was concerned about. No problem with any of them. And I'm glad I did work up to the 11.5 as the 11.0 load turned out to be the best grouping I've had in the 500+ rounds I've fired since buying the gun! ⅝" group, CTC at 25 feet! I'm going back later this week to test more with this 4227 at greater distances.

I also didn't see any pressure issues.

dragon813gt, if you wouldn't mind inputting the 11.5 load of 4227 with the same data points as before and letting me know the velocity? I'd be very grateful!

Thanks to you, and everyone else who helped!

[dangitgriff]

Wow, nice shooting!

[DougGuy]

That is a good group in that you don't have any flyers. I have heard, from reliable source, that 4227 can be temperature sensitive, so I never used it in 45 Colt for that reason. Once your cylinder gets good an warm, POI may change and groups may open up unexplainably so, be aware that temps may be causing variations that affect POI and groups.

[P Flados]

My 327 SP-101 has a 4.25" barrel, but quickload wants muzzle to breech, so I use 5.855".

Yours is 1/2" longer, so I will use 6.355" in QL.

I took a shot at running your bullet with IMR 4227 and the feature that gives data for a bunch of different charges.

Note that when I run Hodgdon's 327 loads through QL, the QL pressure is way below the published pressures but the velocity is pretty close. I also noted that I am getting a lower pressure than DH for the one load that he ran.

Cartridge : .327 Federal Magnum
Bullet : .312, 115 request
Useable Case Capaci: 11.938 grain H2O = 0.775 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.479 inch = 37.57 mm
Barrel Length : 6.4 inch = 161.4 mm
Powder : IMR 4227

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-43.5 65 6.50 702 126 6691 1933 36.1 1.231
-39.1 70 7.00 754 145 7815 2225 38.7 1.150
-34.8 74 7.50 808 167 9110 2542 41.3 1.075
-30.4 79 8.00 863 190 10599 2884 44.1 1.005
-26.1 84 8.50 919 216 12314 3246 46.8 0.940
-21.7 89 9.00 977 244 14292 3628 49.7 0.874
-17.4 94 9.50 1037 275 16579 4028 52.5 0.813
-13.0 99 10.00 1100 309 19233 4445 55.5 0.757
-08.7 104 10.50 1166 347 22326 4877 58.4 0.706
-04.3 109 11.00 1233 388 25951 5319 61.4 0.658
+00.0 114 11.50 1304 434 30226 5771 64.4 0.613
+04.3 119 12.00 1377 484 35313 6226 67.3 0.571
+08.7 124 12.50 1453 539 41423 6682 70.3 0.532 ! Near Maximum !
+13.0 129 13.00 1532 599 48856 7133 73.3 0.495 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+17.4 134 13.50 1614 665 58036 7573 76.2 0.461 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+21.7 139 14.00 1701 739 69590 7994 79.1 0.427 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 114 11.50 1409 507 36040 6517 73.5 0.563
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 114 11.50 1191 362 24916 4923 54.5 0.674

[larry44]

What a great group of people on this forum! Thank you all so much for your valued advice and leading me to my sweet spot. Special thanks to Dtknowles, dangitgriff, dragon813gt, and P Flados!

[ddixie884]

Yeah good deal. A little help from your friends..........