I curious why you say that the smokeless powders are unsafe in the trapdoor. I've researched pressure and load data over several reloading books and online loading data sources and have always kept they pressures under the recommended maximum, usually well under the maximum. I know there is issues with guns that are not in good condition, but this one is sound.Originally Posted by rfd
If I've missed something important I would surely like to know.
Fouling isnt the real issue its "managing" it. on a humid day its easier than a dry day. As long as it stays soft and moist then its better once it get crusty hard then it becomes a problem
A good lube with crisco oil mix a bullet that carries enough or a grease cookie undef it. Should do well. at most you may need to blow tube to add some moisture to it with 2-3 blows.
I use Emmerts Improved mix with good results.
50 % crisco unsalted vegetable shortening.
40% Beeswax
5% canola or olive oil
5% anahydrous lanolin
I also add a few small drops of murphies oil soap to help blend the ingredients better.
Regular Emmerts is the same as above but no lanolin just 10% of the oils.
This is a good lube for most conditions. Other wise spring for a stick of SPG
like phantom22 im new in the BP 45-70-405 loading. A family member recently gave me a model 1873 manufactured in 1878. I remember him shooting off the shelf remington 300gr semi-jacketed hollow point ammo out of it many moons ago. I've been around black powder shooting nearly as far back a I can remember so i know the BRASS drop tube is needed. I also know that Lyman/Ideal is nearly the oldest maker of the 405gr .457" dia boolit mold so thats what i have the 457193 1cav. I have a fair supply of goex FFg. I'm powder coating the boolits , because i like powder coating boolits. I've been told the case will hold up to 65gr of FFg due to they arent bubble-head cases anymore. Am I missing any pieces and/or parts. Besides a case trimmer for consistent case length, measure boolit from crimp groove to base subtract that length from the inside case length tada powder measure scoop.
+1 on the smokeless 'no-no', I have several rifles made pre-1885 and they only get black powder loads. Both may only reach the same pressure peak BUT the black is a gradual rise, while smokeless is a sharp rise. Typically heavy lead boolits are used and it is the inertia (force to move it down the barrel) that can ruin a rifle.
They try it all the time, trail boss in 577/450 and 577 Snider etc, you may get away with for a while but . . . . . . Why ruin a perfectly good antique?
Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!
powder coating wont help at all with blackpowder fouling you will still need a decent lube like told by Country Gent - it might work ok putting it on over top of the lipstick coating (or not) but the purty colour stuff on its own will see you fouled up with hard crud too soon to be fun...............
65 grain with the 405 boolit is about all you get unless you do tarzan with the compression die ...........
case trimmer ? low priority item at my place - I have one - used it forming cases for my 45/75 but other than that -- never had the need for it.
Smokeless is safe if instructions are followed to the letter. But i still dont recommend it. Bp will give better results in that cartridge. If bp is not used with lube it gets to be a pain to remove if ya have the right loob and enuf of it each bullet that goes down the bbl will scrape the last shots fouling out. Example I always hear about people haveing problems with cap&balls and the cylinder pin and when ya watch how they load it they usually proceed to load it with some loob smeared on the front of the ball. If they was to load it with the loob between the ball and the powder they could shoot all day without fail because the pressure blows a mist of loob all over the frame where the cyl gap is before the fouling gets to the steel. Same has to happen inside any bp firearm that uses bp got to coat that steel with loob before the fouling gets to it. So no i do not recommend powdercoating heck for that fact i dont recommend powdercoating for any firearm but thats just me
Those who would trade freedom for safety deserves neither and will lose both
As usual Larry is spot on with his advice. Both loads of the OP's smokeless loads are recommended trap door loads. In many loadings Smokeless Powder has a softer pressure curve than BD. I used to load for a reenactment group mostly with smokeless for used in both originals and the H&R replicas. I know I loaded over 20K without issues on any TD. While I do love shooting BP at times in general smokeless is way easier to get consistent accuracy for most shooter.
Some actual pressure traces here.
http://www.texas-mac.com/Black_Powde...bturation.html
https://winchestercollector.org/foru...%20velocity%20.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-18-2020 at 02:44 AM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
I shoot 27GRS. of 4198 with both 405 GR. and 500 GR. IN MY TRAP DOOR. I am in no way saying for any one to use this load!
I just ordered a stick of the SPG, but also just found a tube of bore butter in my garage that I got from an estate sale or something. It says it can be used as a bullet lube for black powder. Would this work?
Also just cast up 50 or so 405gn hollow base boolits today for this project!
Go with the SPG.................
Does the hollow base of the bullet need to be filled with lube? I am thinking about just lubing them by hand since I'm only starting out with a few. I would think that it doesn't, but I just want to get the opinions of those smarter and more experienced than me.
No. You can just dip lube them and you're good to go.
Cool. Thanks.
In my misguided youth I didn’t pay much attention to game laws. I used a Trapdoor one ML season with BP. 405 gr cast. I first used nothing in case and it didn’t do bad, good enough for 100yd deer shooting. Then started putting just a onion skin paper on top of powder. My buddies made fun of me because they said I was only guy they knew with a Pitch Pipe as part of their loading tools. I used FFg. The 3Fg didn’t shoot as well. I didn’t hot rod, stuck to original specs. Shot this load in original BP Rolling Block action barreled to 45/70 also. RB had new repro ladder tang on it and shot some respectable 100yd groups. I had another RB, smokeless action with Numerich Buffalo Kit and it shot poorly with BP. Same boolit with Unique shot very good. Again not hot rodded. The Trap doors did ok with Unique too. I’m not against smokeless in these old rifles but I don’t use Jacketed bullets in them.
I know that jacketed bullets have been shot through this gun, but never by me. Before my grandfather passed he had a box of jacketed and they must have been severely undersized for the bore. They all shot very low and seemed very slow. I've shot nothing but lead through it and mostly my own cast. Now it tends to shoot a bit high and right all the time. I think it's an issue with the sights or something. I can aim about 7:30 from bullseye by about four or five inches and put a nice group near the center. Nothing spectacular or anything. Just seem to be how the gun is going to shoot. I've tried different powders and loads and they all seem to have very similar points of impact. I cannot wait to see how it handles the black powder. I got my lube the other day and I already cast up about 50 boolits. I've been working the last few days so maybe tomorrow I'll finally load some up. I'm still nervous about my first shot with it, but it seems like it should be safer than the smokeless cartridges. But all in all, it will be my first attempt at black powder. So I will treat it with deference.
PH-22
Shooting these fine blackpowder rifles is sometimes a challenge getting them to shoot to their best ability.
You will see a lot of Internet gurus love to tell newcomers exactly how much compression they will need for good shooting. That’s nonsense. Their rifle will tell them how much it likes by how widely it places the bullet holes in the paper.
I have yet to see a black powder rifle that is a true MOA rifle and I been in this game since around 1953-4 except the three years I spent in the service. A trap door, Sharps, High wall's break open's are all individuals in what ever caliber they are chambered for. What works in one will most likely not shoot well in another from the same manufacturer.
I have several rifles that I have shot MOA groups with but if I was to think I have a blackpowder rifle that is a MOA rifle I would just deceive my self. I cant call any of my rifles a consistent MOA rifle.
With these BPCR there is no one bullet, compression, primer or powder that will give the same results for one or other rifles/shooters, none.
This is just something that you will have to learn using your rifle, no one can tell you this is the best for you. You shoot and experiment with your rifle finding what it will shoot well.
I still have two TD rifles and they are a fine fun rifle to shoot. Load it with a good quality of black powder and find what it shoots well.
One thing to keep in mind and that is. A lot of matches in the BP game has been won with a 2 MOA or plus rifle.
Kurt
Last edited by Lead pot; 10-05-2020 at 07:05 PM.
So I loaded up 10 cartridges today. My dad was able to make a dowel on his lathe that fit into the expander die so I could use it for compression. I compressed slightly with the compression die and a little more with the bullet. By weight the powder charge was about 60gns of Goex 3fg. I think someone on this thread mentioned it would be about that.
I hand lubed the bullets and although not pretty, the lube grooves are filled.
As far as accuracy, I am not concerned about that. I just want them to shoot safely and not blow up my bits and bobs along with the gun.
I won't lie, I'm a little nervous about shooting them even though I've followed all the procedures and am certain there is no air gap. I'm sure the compression may be uneven from cartridge to cartridge. Is there any major consequences from too much or too little compression. I didn't crank down on them so I don't believe the powder had been crushed or anything like that. If anything the compression might be a little light.
In any case, I'm just nervous about it since I have never loaded black powder before. I will fire the first few shots remotely with the gun secured to a table and lead sled. I'm sure afterwards I'll realize I have been nervous for nothing, but I was the same way with my first smokeless reloads over 10 years ago.
I dunno who it was "put the frighteners on you" about black powder but you have shot smokeless in that gun - if you were gonna blow it up - that was when it would have happened !!!!
Relax !!
Be sure to verify the max overall length your gun can take. It’s always hard to get as much BP as you want in, so the boolit gets seated further out. Consider getting a taper crimp die, if you continue to load BP.
It wasn't so much that someone scared me, it's just that I have never done it before and if there is any kind of air gap it could blow up on me. I was nervous the first time I reloaded regular ammo too. Started out with 38 Special and 30-06. I think what eased my mind more there was I was loading at the starting charge and I knew I had some leeway. I guess with BP, it's either good or it isn't. I know it should be easier....fill case...seat bullet onto powder...shoot.
But you are probably right, smokeless is likely much more dangerous in that gun. As with black powder, I did hours and hours of reading and research prior to loading smokeless for the old trapdoor. To the point where I was rereading the same stuff over and over. Once I get a few rounds through it, I'll be fine.
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