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Thread: Questions on loading a 45-70

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    i would ***NEVER*** fire off smokeless in that gun - that's major unsafe!!!

    i have an original remington rolling block in .45-70 and it gets black powder cartridges only. to use smokeless would border on suicide.

    no wads are needed for hollow base bullets.

    you will want to use BLACK POWDER lube, lots of formulas out there, or just buy SPG or any good commercial BP lube.

    patch wipe between shots (1 wet, 1 dry) and/or blow tube (7/16" neoprene tube from the hardware store).

    initially, do not at all be concerned about any compression, no air space tween bullet and powder charge, just build a dummy cartridge to figure out a proper OAL - enuf powder to seat the bullet on top of the powder, with no air space, a small amount of initial compression (.030" to .1" or so), let the bullet set the *slight* amount of compression so initially no need for a press mounted compression plug/die, and a slight taper crimp to hold the bullet in place for handling.

    good luck. be safe.
    I curious why you say that the smokeless powders are unsafe in the trapdoor. I've researched pressure and load data over several reloading books and online loading data sources and have always kept they pressures under the recommended maximum, usually well under the maximum. I know there is issues with guns that are not in good condition, but this one is sound.

    If I've missed something important I would surely like to know.

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Fouling isnt the real issue its "managing" it. on a humid day its easier than a dry day. As long as it stays soft and moist then its better once it get crusty hard then it becomes a problem

    A good lube with crisco oil mix a bullet that carries enough or a grease cookie undef it. Should do well. at most you may need to blow tube to add some moisture to it with 2-3 blows.

    I use Emmerts Improved mix with good results.
    50 % crisco unsalted vegetable shortening.
    40% Beeswax
    5% canola or olive oil
    5% anahydrous lanolin
    I also add a few small drops of murphies oil soap to help blend the ingredients better.
    Regular Emmerts is the same as above but no lanolin just 10% of the oils.

    This is a good lube for most conditions. Other wise spring for a stick of SPG

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy Littlewolf's Avatar
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    like phantom22 im new in the BP 45-70-405 loading. A family member recently gave me a model 1873 manufactured in 1878. I remember him shooting off the shelf remington 300gr semi-jacketed hollow point ammo out of it many moons ago. I've been around black powder shooting nearly as far back a I can remember so i know the BRASS drop tube is needed. I also know that Lyman/Ideal is nearly the oldest maker of the 405gr .457" dia boolit mold so thats what i have the 457193 1cav. I have a fair supply of goex FFg. I'm powder coating the boolits , because i like powder coating boolits. I've been told the case will hold up to 65gr of FFg due to they arent bubble-head cases anymore. Am I missing any pieces and/or parts. Besides a case trimmer for consistent case length, measure boolit from crimp groove to base subtract that length from the inside case length tada powder measure scoop.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master Bad Ass Wallace's Avatar
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    +1 on the smokeless 'no-no', I have several rifles made pre-1885 and they only get black powder loads. Both may only reach the same pressure peak BUT the black is a gradual rise, while smokeless is a sharp rise. Typically heavy lead boolits are used and it is the inertia (force to move it down the barrel) that can ruin a rifle.

    They try it all the time, trail boss in 577/450 and 577 Snider etc, you may get away with for a while but . . . . . . Why ruin a perfectly good antique?
    Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlewolf View Post
    like phantom22 im new in the BP 45-70-405 loading. A family member recently gave me a model 1873 manufactured in 1878. I remember him shooting off the shelf remington 300gr semi-jacketed hollow point ammo out of it many moons ago. I've been around black powder shooting nearly as far back a I can remember so i know the BRASS drop tube is needed. I also know that Lyman/Ideal is nearly the oldest maker of the 405gr .457" dia boolit mold so thats what i have the 457193 1cav. I have a fair supply of goex FFg. I'm powder coating the boolits , because i like powder coating boolits. I've been told the case will hold up to 65gr of FFg due to they arent bubble-head cases anymore. Am I missing any pieces and/or parts. Besides a case trimmer for consistent case length, measure boolit from crimp groove to base subtract that length from the inside case length tada powder measure scoop.
    powder coating wont help at all with blackpowder fouling you will still need a decent lube like told by Country Gent - it might work ok putting it on over top of the lipstick coating (or not) but the purty colour stuff on its own will see you fouled up with hard crud too soon to be fun...............

    65 grain with the 405 boolit is about all you get unless you do tarzan with the compression die ...........




    case trimmer ? low priority item at my place - I have one - used it forming cases for my 45/75 but other than that -- never had the need for it.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master Ozark mike's Avatar
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    Smokeless is safe if instructions are followed to the letter. But i still dont recommend it. Bp will give better results in that cartridge. If bp is not used with lube it gets to be a pain to remove if ya have the right loob and enuf of it each bullet that goes down the bbl will scrape the last shots fouling out. Example I always hear about people haveing problems with cap&balls and the cylinder pin and when ya watch how they load it they usually proceed to load it with some loob smeared on the front of the ball. If they was to load it with the loob between the ball and the powder they could shoot all day without fail because the pressure blows a mist of loob all over the frame where the cyl gap is before the fouling gets to the steel. Same has to happen inside any bp firearm that uses bp got to coat that steel with loob before the fouling gets to it. So no i do not recommend powdercoating heck for that fact i dont recommend powdercoating for any firearm but thats just me
    Those who would trade freedom for safety deserves neither and will lose both

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    phantom22

    You're smokeless loads are safe to shoot in your TD if it's in good condition. Both loads mentioned generate TD level BP pressures and are below the SAAMI MAP [28,000 psi] for TD 45/70 loads. My regular smokeless TD load is 36 gr IMR4895 with a dacron filler under the Lee 405HB bullet. It runs at 22,400 psi as measured via my Oehler M43 PBL. Pressure testing 70 gr of Goex fffg and Superfine fffg under the lee 405 HB give 22 - 24000 psi +/-.

    You might check out my posts in this thread for BP loading for you TD, especially with Goex fffg; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-and-Equipment
    As usual Larry is spot on with his advice. Both loads of the OP's smokeless loads are recommended trap door loads. In many loadings Smokeless Powder has a softer pressure curve than BD. I used to load for a reenactment group mostly with smokeless for used in both originals and the H&R replicas. I know I loaded over 20K without issues on any TD. While I do love shooting BP at times in general smokeless is way easier to get consistent accuracy for most shooter.

    Some actual pressure traces here.

    http://www.texas-mac.com/Black_Powde...bturation.html

    https://winchestercollector.org/foru...%20velocity%20.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-18-2020 at 02:44 AM.
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  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    I shoot 27GRS. of 4198 with both 405 GR. and 500 GR. IN MY TRAP DOOR. I am in no way saying for any one to use this load!

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    Fouling isnt the real issue its "managing" it. on a humid day its easier than a dry day. As long as it stays soft and moist then its better once it get crusty hard then it becomes a problem

    A good lube with crisco oil mix a bullet that carries enough or a grease cookie undef it. Should do well. at most you may need to blow tube to add some moisture to it with 2-3 blows.

    I use Emmerts Improved mix with good results.
    50 % crisco unsalted vegetable shortening.
    40% Beeswax
    5% canola or olive oil
    5% anahydrous lanolin
    I also add a few small drops of murphies oil soap to help blend the ingredients better.
    Regular Emmerts is the same as above but no lanolin just 10% of the oils.

    This is a good lube for most conditions. Other wise spring for a stick of SPG
    I just ordered a stick of the SPG, but also just found a tube of bore butter in my garage that I got from an estate sale or something. It says it can be used as a bullet lube for black powder. Would this work?

    Also just cast up 50 or so 405gn hollow base boolits today for this project!

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom22 View Post
    I just ordered a stick of the SPG, but also just found a tube of bore butter in my garage that I got from an estate sale or something. It says it can be used as a bullet lube for black powder. Would this work?

    Also just cast up 50 or so 405gn hollow base boolits today for this project!
    Go with the SPG.................

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check