Aspiring master thread for BLACKPOWDER .44WCF/.44-40

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

Editing to add as much as I can to this post, hoping to gather as much info into this single thread as possible. Please contribute!

Dedicated to the late John Kort, AKA Jack Christian/w30wcf. RIP, Sir, and thanks again for the hard work, help, and kindness.

Below is a couple of links to threads, videos, and websites that I have found VERY informative. I hope to add to this list, as well as update this thread with my continued experiences.

First, John Kort's legendary thread, which ran here on CB and over on CAS City. This is a MUST READ, and explains much of the history and challenge of blackpowder in the .44 Winchester. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Powder-Journey

Another great thread of John's over on CAS City:

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/in...topic=40683.20

Next, Bryan (Savvy Jack) Austin's INCREDIBLE website. Bryan was a friend of John's, and to my mind picked up the .44WCF baton from John. SO much cool and informative stuff on there- spend some time exploring and reading. My hat is off to Bryan and I am very grateful that he has put in the work to make all this info so beautifully accessible to us all. Here's the money quote from his site: **The purpose of this website is to share information, Historical and Modern information, debunking myths that the 44-40 is a weak "dead" cartridge. Modern factory loads and neutered handloads mis-represent the true performance of this great cartridge**https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ter?authuser=0

Great thread on crimping: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Die-and-44-40

Thread on alloy hardness: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...0-Uberti-Henry

Next up is a video from one of my favorite YouTube channels- Mr. Capandball from Hungary. While no new info really, he has a few great videos on shooting blackpowder loads from an Uberti 1873 rifle, and along with videos of many other blackpowder and vintage guns, they are very enjoyable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_1dxTkIUHg

That is all for now- though later I will add more about my reloading setup and talk more about issues I've had, improvements I am making, and etc. Please, if you have some good info to add or want to share your experiences shooting and reloading blackpowder .44WCF, chime in!

[Huvius]

I’ve just recently bought a Chiappa Little Sharps in 44-40.
The only loaded ammo I could source locally was HSM Cowboy Action brand. Fired three shots.
First seemed to shoot OK, second cracked about 1/4 around the neck base and the last left the neck in the chamber!
Sportsman’s Warehouse refused to take the rest back and HSM hasn’t been any help yet.
Now, to my point.
HSM uses Starlin brass which I generally like but the Starline 44-40 doesn’t have any neck at all. Even brand new cases from Starline have no neck or shoulder.
I don’t know why that is but I think that presents a problem if you run hard cast boolits with a heavy crimp. The HSM ammo uses a very heavy crimp and the boolit can barely be scratched with your nail.
As it is, I will source Winchester brass which starts out properly formed for a 44-40 chamber.
I would anneal that Starline brass to help it fire form and mitigate case cracking.

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

Huvius,

Always loved the sound of those Little Sharps! That is a crazy deal with your defective rounds. I use Starline almost exclusively in my revolver, and just fireform the new cases- never had a single issue with them. And I load heavy BP loads with a heavy crimp and boolits that aren't crazy soft. But, BP does generate MUCH lower pressures than even a lot of light cowboy smokeyless loads (depending on powder of course. If I were you, I wouldn't blame the brass just yet- I suspect it is that particular manufacturer's loading. Smokeless I assume?

[Huvius]

Yes, smokeless.
I haven’t ruled out a defective chamber either but just haven’t got around to doing a chamber cast to see if that could be a contributor.

[ndnchf]

Great info, thanks for pulling it together. I corresponded with John Kort many times. He was a great asset and did much to bring the .44 WCF history to light.

[john.k]

Ive found Starline brass is left hard from drawing ,and needs annealing before first load ,if its to last ......I accept this as the price is relatively low.

[Babbott213]

Very Nice!!!! Wished we had a like button or a Thumbs Up button.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Randy Bohannon]

Starline anneals all of their brass the color change is washed away in the final polish. 44-40 necks are so thin annealing is unnecessary even with B/P. Both of my Miroku 73’s chambers show no discernible step on any fired brass WW,Rem. or Starline. I’ve annealed and not annealed with no difference on the target I just don’t do it for the 32-20 or 44-40 WCF, I can get 40 grs of 2Fg and seat a 230 gr. Bullet without bulging the case .

[indian joe]

Starline anneals all of their brass the color change is washed away in the final polish. 44-40 necks are so thin annealing is unnecessary even with B/P. Both of my Miroku 73’s chambers show no discernible step on any fired brass WW,Rem. or Starline. I’ve annealed and not annealed with no difference on the target I just don’t do it for the 32-20 or 44-40 WCF, I can get 40 grs of 2Fg and seat a 230 gr. Bullet without bulging the case .

Both my Uberti and a rebarrel 92 (Brownells reamer I would guess) fire form starline with a visible step/shoulder to the case - I just figured their case design helped with cost in the process. ?

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/in...topic=40683.20

I hope it is okay to post a link to another forum. We are brothers, not competitors.

This thread was started by John Kort and contains a lot of information and advice. In this thread ( and private messages) he helped me turn a cantankerous Uberti 1873 into a powerful accurate rifle.
In my Uberti no smokeless load is as accurate as Swiss 2F. Fast forward to today and I have added a revolver and an 1892 Winchester to my 44WCF arsenal.
The 44WCF stuffed with black powder is easily my favorite cartridge.

[Ozark mike]

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/in...topic=40683.20

I hope it is okay to post a link to another forum. We are brothers, not competitors.

This thread was started by John Kort and contains a lot of information and advice. In this thread ( and private messages) he helped me turn a cantankerous Uberti 1873 into a powerful accurate rifle.
In my Uberti no smokeless load is as accurate as Swiss 2F. Fast forward to today and I have added a revolver and an 1892 Winchester to my 44WCF arsenal.
The 44WCF stuffed with black powder is easily my favorite cartridge.

It really is a awsome lil round for all around use

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

Guys, keep it coming! And as far as I'm concerned, I'll take all the links to good information I can to add to this thread. John Kort frequented both this forum and CAS City while he was still around. Started some great threads on both forums. I'll add that thread to my OP. Looks like a great thread.

On why Starline doesn't form the bottleneck in .44WCF catridges- my theory (others have mentioned it as well) is that because of the wide variations in chambers both of antique and reproduction guns, leaving the brass that way means it can be loaded and chambered in any chamber for the first loading. Dunno if that makes sense, but it is what I lean towards.

[John Boy]

JDG, John Kort, God Rest His Soul. was a good friend and shooting buddy. I had the pleasure to spot for John when he shot both Accurate mold bullets at the 300 meter Pigs at the Ridgway Rifle range ... which he posted in his excellent detailed discussion on Cast Boolits
The Accurate 43-215C is the only bullet I shoot in my JM Marlin Ballard - #2 Sporting Rifle

[EDG]

45-70, 40-65, 50-70 and 45-90 brass is left hard by Starline. It all needs to be annealed for long life.

Starline anneals all of their brass the color change is washed away in the final polish. 44-40 necks are so thin annealing is unnecessary even with B/P. Both of my Miroku 73’s chambers show no discernible step on any fired brass WW,Rem. or Starline. I’ve annealed and not annealed with no difference on the target I just don’t do it for the 32-20 or 44-40 WCF, I can get 40 grs of 2Fg and seat a 230 gr. Bullet without bulging the case .

[Dave T]

I just got back to the 44 WCF after an absence of 26 years. Bought 250 Star-line cases and ran the first 50 into my new RCBS size die. They came out with a beautifully bottled shoulder and neck. I'm not seeing a problem but perhaps I will get some split necks after a few reloads. Guess time will tell.

Dave

[ndnchf]

I just loaded 200 new starline 44-40 using RCBS dies. I shot over 100 of them yesterday. They worked fine. They seem well annealed.

[Savvy Jack]

JuliettDeltaGolf, thank you for those kind words!!!




HUVIUS, maybe you can try some of the following and have a bit more enjoyable day at the range!!! Hope it helps.

BRASS
Starline brass is the best. Starline is thicker and a tad stronger than Winchester at the neck/mouth. Remington brass is much thicker but many firearms dislike this brass with large diameter bullets, won't chamber.

I have never ever annealed and I have reloaded some cases many times with 18,000psi (for strong action rifles only) loads and have had no real problems. Out of all of the loading I have done in the past ten years I have only had a small handful of mouth "splits". Only on one occasion I had a horizontal crack just below the case mouth.

SPLITS
The main items to consider, for splits, is the amount of crimp one may be using, the hardness of the lead (has to do with how hard you crimp into the hard lead pending bullet used, i.e. crimp groove vs no crimp groove) and how small you resize your brass then how large you expand the neck (over worked brass).

NEW BRASS
New Starline brass can be loaded WITHOUT resizing if the loader uses a full case load of black powder to keep the bullet seated. There is nothing wrong with the new cases NOT having a bottle-neck form. The only issue a handloader may find with not resizing new brass is the amount of neck retention needed and the size bullet being used. I have several vintage pre-1884 cases that do not have an obvious "bottleneck". If folks are using pistol powders I suggest resizing new brass when using lead bullets without a crimp groove and when using the small diameter Winchester .425" JSP bullets. This will give extra neck retention to keep the bullet from telescoping down into the case when loaded in the mag tube of a rifle. Bullets with a sufficient crimp groove should be fine.

CRIMP DIE (LFCD)
Using a 44-40 Lee Factory Crimp die with with over-sized bullets (.429-.430"), the collet will not close all the way and brass will get squeezed between them causing little "bumps" at the case mouth. This is were 95% of my splits occurred...at the bumps.


There is a bit of detailed information at the following link. It is hard to get all of this information into just a few paragraphs.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading



All pray to the 44-40 Gods immediately, for they are very ANGRY...!!!
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[Outpost75]

I have found that the Redding Profile Crimp does a better job in .44-40 than the Lee Factory Crimp die, which may size bullets too much by compression inside the case, for bullets to correctly fit the cylinder throats of modern Ruger, Pietta and Uberti revolvers.

[Savvy Jack]

I have found that the Redding Profile Crimp does a better job in .44-40 than the Lee Factory Crimp die, which may size bullets too much by compression inside the case, for bullets to correctly fit the cylinder throats of modern Ruger, Pietta and Uberti revolvers.

Absolutely, I too feel the Redding 44-40 Profile die is far superior to the LFCD. The Redding die works extremely well with both lead bullets that do not have a crimp groove as well as both 44-40 Winchester and 44-40 Remington JSP bullets. The die makes two different crimps. It "flows" into the O'give of the 44-40 profile bullets and makes a "U" type crimp for the crimp groove in the JSP bullets. At the same time, it resizes any "bulges" or imperfections caused by the crimp process.

Attachment 267731
Both crimps are from the Redding Profile Die.
NOTE different case neck profiles. Case on left resized (No Crimp Groove) with the larger RCBS "Cowboy" die for the .428" sized lead bullet while the case on the right was resized with the smaller Lee resize die for the smaller .4255" Winchester JSP. What is hard to see is the slight "Wasp Waist" just below the base of the bullet which somewhat acts like a cannular helping to prevent the bullet from telescoping down into the case when used in a rifle magtube.


Attachment 267732
Previous damage to case mouth using the LFCD on bullets sized .429"-.430".
Cartridge is currently crimped with the Redding die.


Attachment 267733
Far right, LFCD used on a Hornady 240gr .430" shows "bumps" while the center cartridge used a smaller diameter bullet, allowing the LFCD Collets to fully close at the crimp stage, preventing "bumps".


Attachment 267734
Other issues when using large diameter bullets or bullets that are not a true 44-40 O'give profile.


Attachment 267736
Roll crimps leave a slight bulge just below the roll and can hinder chambering.


Attachment 267735
Original, possible gelding metal cartridge pre-1884 shows very little bottleneck profile.


Attachment 267737
More issues related to chambering old tight chambers

[eastbank]

never had any problems with my little sharps in 44-40, it loves 21.5grs 2400 in rem cases with a 200 gr JFP. it chrony,s 1600 fps and is my hunting load. top target 50 yards and lower target 75 yards .