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Thread: 350 Legend and H110 Reloading Help

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    350 Legend and H110 Reloading Help

    Hi everyone! This is my first post on this forum. I've been a long time viewer, and finally decided to make an account.

    I recently built an AR in 350 legend with the express goal of using cast lead projectiles. My upper is a Bear Creek Arsenal with a 16" 1:16 twist barrel and carbine length gas system. I'm actually quite impressed with the quality of this upper, all machining and finishing is very clean when considering the price.

    I first got a Lee 358-200-RF mold with generally poor results, the projectile is just too short for semi-auto function and reliable chambering in my rifle. I then got an NOE 357-189-RF mold that is functioning much better. I'm using WW alloy that I've enriched with ~0.5% copper (using copper sulfate). Bullets are powder coated, NOT gas checked, and weigh at 195 grains. They are sized to 0.357 and seated to 2.17". Cases are Starline and trimmed to 1.705".

    Using 22.0 grains of H110, I'm getting reliable cycling and roughly 1.5" groups at 100 yards. My one and only issue is that I'm getting an occasional pressure sign on 1 out of every 5 casings. On these casings, I'm mostly seeing slight ejector shearing marks. Even less often, I'm seeing occasional mild primer flattening and extractor marks on my head stamps. I'm not certain if this is due to my rifle being overgassed, or if these are actual pressure signs. I've noticed an occasional thin ring of shaved lead left over in my throat, which may be creating excessive headspace on the subsequent round. Using Gordon's reloading tool, I should be running 40-45k psi.

    This particular cartridge is a new concept to me, and I'm not entirely certain of how I should interpret these results. H110 is a new powder for me, and with almost no load data available, I'm curious if this may be a result of too low of a charge. I unfortunately don't have access to a chronograph right now.

    If anyone may have some input or advice, I'd love to hear it!

  2. #2
    Boolit Master 44Blam's Avatar
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    H110 is similar to W296 and AA11fs... I had some occasional pressure signs (but everything seemed fine). But yesterday I got the wakeup pressure sign:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...popped-primers
    WWG1WGA

  3. #3
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44Blam View Post
    H110 is similar to W296 and AA11fs... I had some occasional pressure signs (but everything seemed fine). But yesterday I got the wakeup pressure sign:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...popped-primers
    I actually had a similar result happen a few times with my loads using the Lee 358-200-RF mold. Primers fell right out upon extraction. In curious if case fill may have been the cause.

    I tried calculating my case volume and fill with my current NOE bullet load. I used the SAAMI volume of 2.365cc to try and calculate my percent fill. With 22 grains of h110, I should be at roughly 88% of available volume filled. Next chance I get, I'll go ahead and measure the volume of my Starline brass.

    I'm wondering if bumping that up to 95% (~23.5 grains H110) would be beneficial. GRT says I should be running about 50k psi with that load.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    With thinnest case floor/web thickness, Starline is the most vulnerable to pressure/primer pocket anomalies -- Winchester the least vulnerable.
    https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...&postcount=203

    I'll counsel (in my experience) that getting suffcient H110/W296 into the 350L case to get above 90% will be problematic.

    Do this:
    1) Measure empty case case depth (caliper depth probe)
    2) Fill and measure distance-to-powder (ditto)
    3) Measure shank depth on bullet when/where you seat it

    Fill Fraction ~ (1-2)/(1-3)



    Break, Break; Try both
    - Norma-200, and
    - Vihtavuori N110 (totally different fron H110, hi-volume factor, not overly-sensitive to fill%, and well behaved)
    Last edited by mehavey; 09-14-2020 at 07:58 AM.

  5. #5
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    I dont have the LEE bullet, But I do have a Lyman 358315 and a RCBS 210 FN & MP 359-220. All near identical profiles. The 315 & 220 smaller dia in throats if ya PC.

    RL7 is showing respectable accuracy and velocity.

    CW
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  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by mehavey View Post
    With thinnest case floor/web thickness, Starline is the most vulnerable to pressure/primer pocket anomalies -- Winchester the least vulnerable.
    https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...&postcount=203

    I'll counsel (in my experience) that getting suffcient H110/W296 into the 350L case to get above 90% will be problematic.

    Do this:
    1) Measure empty case case depth (caliper depth probe)
    2) Fill and measure distance-to-powder (ditto)
    3) Measure shank depth on bullet when/where you seat it

    Fill Fraction ~ (1-2)/(1-3)



    Break, Break; Try both
    - Norma-200, and
    - Vihtavuori N110 (totally different fron H110, hi-volume factor, not overly-sensitive to fill%, and well behaved)
    I've unfortunately had a very poor experience with the 350 legend Winchester brass that I initially purchased, and I'm now leary of purchasing it again. In the lots that I purchased, I had a high percentage (15%+) of defective casings. Many of them had horribly off-center flash holes, a strange ring at the base of the case head, and wildly varying case lengths. I was getting fairly frequent excessive head expansion, enough to appear like a belted case. I'm currently waiting on Winchester to respond to me, it's unacceptable for the price of this brass.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The Starline brass that I later purchased seems to be of much higher quality. All casings have clean and centered flash holes, as well as consistent case lengths.

    Unfortunately, the only powder I have available for the foreseeable future is H110. I'm going to see if I can get a higher percentage case fill safely, and will report back if this results in improvement. Further, I believe an adjustable gas block is in order.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    You can trim Length.
    You can discard off-center flash holes.
    You can't fix web floor thickness.
    -- Forewarned --

    This was a totally normal, calibrated, pressure/velocity load.
    Until it wasn't.


    In this instance, I credit the [much] greater WIN Brass case floor/web-thickness from preventing even greater ..."problems"

    I also suggest "getting more volume of H110 into the case" is not an option.
    Last edited by mehavey; 09-14-2020 at 01:08 PM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    ^^ your left pic shows ripped rim also. Definitely high pressure and early extraction ( over gassed for THAT load). I didn't have trouble with H110 in BO but W296 is a problem. Yes, supposed to be same powder. Your ejector dimple is from over-pressure flow but surprised it didn't 'swipe'. Yea, not fun when primer get stuck in the gas key/bolt area either.
    Whatever!

  9. #9
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    If you can not get the Lee 200gr bullet to feed then you have a gun problem. Mehavey is right about the Starline brass. He is not the only one that has run into the Starline base problem.

    You seat the Lee bullet to the last full diameter of the bullet so the unsupported nose is sticking out of the case. I have the Lee and the Mihec version of the RCBS original design. Both feed perfect. H110 has been giving a few people some problems of late. I have got away from it and LILgun

  10. #10
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    ....surprised it didn't 'swipe'.
    You DID notice that rather notable lack of an "S" in WINCHESTER ?

  11. #11
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    My unsolicited opinion is that the H110/W296 is not the problem- crappy brass syndrome is. It’s been said before- Winchester should have based it on 5.56 brass to begin with. I see and read about problems that seem to be unique to the “Legend”; but I also read about good range reports as far as accuracy goes. But the sub-par condition of brand new Winchester brass is a very common story it seems. H110/W296 are a famous powder for full charge magnum handgun cartridges as well as .30 Carbine and supersonic .300 Blackout. I hope you get it worked out.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Gentlemen,

    With the exception of Starline's web/floor, I've not had problems. In 400 new/bagged Win cases, I've had no rejects
    Use of H110/W296 is a problem w/ a case length/volume/bullet combo in which you reach MAX pressure substantially before 90% Fill.



    (Lil'Gun was fun though)

    postscript: This was a Starline case.
    (Did I mention I was now using WIN brass)

  13. #13
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    Only problem with Win brass I have had was my own fault. I over reamed the crimped primer pockets so they acted like an expanded case head. Last 2 bags I bought the brass was absolutely perfect.

    They had problems at first with over crimping and long brass. That seems to have been worked out.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master 44Blam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    My unsolicited opinion is that the H110/W296 is not the problem- crappy brass syndrome is. It’s been said before- Winchester should have based it on 5.56 brass to begin with. I see and read about problems that seem to be unique to the “Legend”; but I also read about good range reports as far as accuracy goes. But the sub-par condition of brand new Winchester brass is a very common story it seems. H110/W296 are a famous powder for full charge magnum handgun cartridges as well as .30 Carbine and supersonic .300 Blackout. I hope you get it worked out.
    Y'all can load W296/H110/AA11FS in 350 Legend if you want, but I am out. I'll save that for my 44 magnum.

    I've always gone with powders that tend to fill the cases a little more full and were a bit slower. The pressure spikes with what I thought was a very stable load in 350 legend are problematic.
    WWG1WGA

  15. #15
    Boolit Master Ozark mike's Avatar
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    The only time i had primer pockets loosen up was in 45-70 shoulder breakers needless to say i havent made that mistake again
    Those who would trade freedom for safety deserves neither and will lose both

  16. #16
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    While I have and continue to see CASE length inconsistencies. Its about the only "problem" I see. But its really NOT a PROBLEM at all as I wont shoot factory ammo.
    Last night I got a new mold and cast up just A few to "see". Its a Saeco #352. While I didn't buy specific for the legend Its a good fit and with a proper alloy could be a candidate. (Hunting bullet)
    Anyhow, I grabbed the case where the primer fell out. The case head had .0015 expansion. There was no "ring". Case head expansion will tell ya about what that case underwent. But depending upon your chamber determines just how much that will expand. The length is not a big change. Meaning at operating pressure (and actually ALLOT HIGHER then designed) Its not going to "flow" UNLESS YOUR chamber has issues OR YOU cut brass excessively short. Then sure it will and you can actually CREATE your own issues. The max case lengths 1.710. Much shorter then 1.700 will get ya near that condition. BUT thats all assuming you have proper chamber & Head Space. Excessive HS can also cause cases to grow. As we all should know they "grow" just above the web where that case excessively thins to create case walls. Causing the ring. But that abrupt step... Id like to see a chamber case from that chamber as I suspect ya might find same.

    I had a few cases with fairly deep (to my standards) ejector marks. Only a few cause I stopped shooting as soon as I saw. NONE of these cases show a ring and NONE expanded past .0015 at the base. (They measured .392/.3925. My Resized cases are .391 from My LEE die set)

    Also the ejected primer case WAS a marked case. Meaning when I seat a primer and notice it to be a lil "loose" compared to others. Ill mark the case head and toss it NEXT TIME It comes up to be loaded. SO, I based on case head, and my mark. That ejected primer was not at all a dangerous loading. BUT the ejector/extractor marks are "proud" enough to allow the case to "rock" On a piece of glass. So altho I didnt measure Im guessing .001 or less protrusion. Actually quite substantial and dangerous. That load is properly marked in my logs. That one will be dropped a full 2 g and the other will be dropped 1 g & re shot. BOTH of these where 296 a d BOTH with a resized 180g jacketed projo. Just different seating depths.

    Back to cases, I have only Winchester. I have about 7/800 cases. I have seen crimped pockets which I made up a proper Stem for my Dillion 600 and swaged them. No off center Flash Holes have been noticed and I would notice decaping.

    Ill pick up some Starline cases when I need more cases, and I will see what I see there. But so far these Winchester cases after initial trim have been fine and have NOT needed trimming again.

    CW
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  17. #17
    Boolit Mold
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    I should be more specific, my loads using the 200gr Lee bullets fed 100% of the time. My real problem was the bullet being mangled on its trip into the chamber. This happened regardless of what I did with magazine geometry (I've been modifying Pmags). It may just be my barrel extension (300 blackout feed ramps) and my tight chamber.

  18. #18
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    I'm a little late to the discussion, sorry.
    As far as H110/296 goes, Would it be worth trying 4227? 4227 has a similar burn rate, maybe slightly slower, but it is bulkier so you'll get more case fill.
    Just some thoughts, I do not have a 350.

  19. #19
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    Run a harder alloy and powder coat.

  20. #20
    Boolit Mold
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    I have some newer loads worked up using the same casings and NOE bullets, and are seated to the same depth. I originally worked up starting at 21 grains of h110, and decided to stop at 22 grains. This time, I made loads at 20 and 20.5 grains of H110, with the hopes that this may show some improvement. I'm aware this contradicts the idea of the relationship between case volume/pressure inconsistencies, but I'm not entirely convinced that this is the issue. I'll again closely monitor my casings for signs of pressure, and I have a large enough sample size that I should see abnormalities if they are going to occur.

    One thing I forgot to previously mention, my bore is 0.354 inches in diameter. I'm curious if this 0.003" discrepancy between projectile and bore diameter is related to pressure signs, especially with my hardened bullets.

    Hopefully I'll be able to get out and run them this week, and I'll report back with any results.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check