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Thread: 38 Special Loads

  1. #1
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    38 Special Loads

    I'm sure it's been beaten to death, but I am the new guy so here it goes.

    Lets say you found 5 pounds of Hodgdon Universal and 4 pounds of HP38 you forgot you had (in an unopened box from the shipper 4 years ago). You've spent your entire life being a Unique kind of guy, with a little Bullseye for good measure (a double entendre without intending it to be), but you would like to use the HP38 and Universal.

    On hand you have a metric ton worth of 358311's and H&G 51, around the 160gr weight along with a short bus full of 358432 160's.

    What would your pick be for a good mid-range/upper range with those bullet and the new found powders? I have zero experience with either, as I've said I've been pretty much a 4.5-5gr Unique guy for 20+ years.

    I say mid/upper as I'm assuming Universal is not the best of lower end loads, unsure about HP38.

    On hand are a lot of K frame Smiths, a few Security/Speed 6's , and a few Ruger LCR's.

    If you feel truly inspired, I also have a few 148gr DEWC that I typically load with 3.2 t 3.5grs of Bullseye, depending on application. But if Universal/HP38 can work for that too, I wouldn't mind.


    Thanks in advance,
    Scott
    Last edited by Scott.M; 09-12-2020 at 05:27 PM.

  2. #2
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    If you can't find a good recipe for it---

    This is the perfect reason you 'need' another gun that it will work well in.
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  3. #3
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    I have long considered Universal one of the poorest powders extant for the 38 Special. I feel less antagonistic toward W231/HP 38.

    A lot of chronograph testing formulated that opinion.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    HP38 is a good 38 special powder. It also works into the starting magnum range for both 357 and 44 magnum according to my data. It works well for light 38s though. It's the same powder as W231 and data can be used for that if more available.

  5. #5
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    I'M a big fan of Unique, too, but I've used a fair amount of W231/HP38/whatever they're calling it this week. It's cleaner burning and meters better than Unique, but is faster burning and not as versatile across a range of pistol calibers (.380 ACP to magnum-level .45 Colt). If you intend to use it mainly for .38 Spl, the latter considerations are no major disadvantage. Certainly, if 4 pounds of of W231 "just fell in my lap", so to speak, I'd take my supply of Unique off of ".38 Special duty" (not its best use, anyway) and divert it to other uses!

    If memory serves, 3.0-3.2/W231/158 makes a very shootable snubby load, which is even manageable in alloy-framed snubbies. 3.3-3.8/W231/158 makes for a good "general purpose" load for medium & larger frame .38s. Check this in a current manual, but I believe one may go as high as 4.3/W231/158 in +P rated .38s, without exceeding SAAMI pressure specs. Still very shootable.
    I agree that W231 will give you performance just inside the magnum spectrum, at max loads, but velocities will be uninspiring for heavier projectiles. THIS is where Universal & Unique will perform at their best. They may not quite deliver TRUE magnum perfomance, but they'll get you closer than W231 or Bullseye.
    Lastly, W231 works well in almost all auto pistol calibers, except perhaps 10mm, .38 Super or .357 SiG. It probably WILL work at least "okay" in those 2 calibers, but there are better propellants. I've shot at least a pound of W231 through my .40 S&W and my .45s, with no complaint, but I didn't replace them once they were used up. I just prefer Unique for most things.

    Since Hodgdon Universal is tacitly marketed as "Hodgdon UNIQUE", it is no surprise to me that its performance in .38 Special may be "okay", but is rarely "terrific".
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    I'M a big fan of Unique, too, but I've used a fair amount of W231/HP38/whatever they're calling it this week. It's cleaner burning and meters better than Unique, but is faster burning and not as versatile across a range of pistol calibers (.380 ACP to magnum-level .45 Colt). If you intend to use it mainly for .38 Spl, the latter considerations are no major disadvantage. Certainly, if 4 pounds of of W231 "just fell in my lap", so to speak, I'd take my supply of Unique off of ".38 Special duty" (not its best use, anyway) and divert it to other uses!

    If memory serves, 3.0-3.2/W231/158 makes a very shootable snubby load, which is even manageable in alloy-framed snubbies. 3.3-3.8/W231/158 makes for a good "general purpose" load for medium & larger frame .38s. Check this in a current manual, but I believe one may go as high as 4.3/W231/158 in +P rated .38s, without exceeding SAAMI pressure specs. Still very shootable.
    I agree that W231 will give you performance just inside the magnum spectrum, at max loads, but velocities will be uninspiring for heavier projectiles. THIS is where Universal & Unique will perform at their best. They may not quite deliver TRUE magnum perfomance, but they'll get you closer than W231 or Bullseye.
    Lastly, W231 works well in almost all auto pistol calibers, except perhaps 10mm, .38 Super or .357 SiG. It probably WILL work at least "okay" in those 2 calibers, but there are better propellants. I've shot at least a pound of W231 through my .40 S&W and my .45s, with no complaint, but I didn't replace them once they were used up. I just prefer Unique for most things.

    Since Hodgdon Universal is tacitly marketed as "Hodgdon UNIQUE", it is no surprise to me that its performance in .38 Special may be "okay", but is rarely "terrific".

    Thanks, and if it helps I have a few 357's to load for too. Perhaps Universal would be better for that in a midrange load? I tend to use 2400 for cast and 110/296 for jacketed.

  7. #7
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    Lyman #4 says w-231 3.5 675fps -- 4.9 906

    HP-38 is practically the same

    http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manu...-%20Reduce.pdf

    page 267

  8. #8
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    My answer is actually “yes” to 231 but an emphatic NO to Universal. Just clarifying. Much load data exists for 231 and I suggest you avail yourself of those sources for standard velocity loads with your bullet of choice.

    As for Universal, better in the 40 and 9mm. Bad in 38. Ballistic consistency is absolutely horrible.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

    This is the link to the Hodgdon reloading data site. There is a lot of information for the powders you mentioned for both 38 special and 357 magnum.
    Hodgdon sells both of those powders and provides the data free of charge.
    More data available than just those boolit weights as well.
    HP38/win231 works well for me although I usually use other powders. I have never used Universal so I can't offer any experience there.

  10. #10
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    I keep 3 burning rates of pistol powders on hand, when supplies allow:
    Fast: Alliant Bullseye, Red Dot (Promo) or IMR-700X.
    Medium: Alliant Unique, Herco, BE-86, or Accurate #5 (in that order).
    Slow: Alliant 2400 or one of the 4227s. I avoid H110/W296 like the plague, for anything except .30 Carbine.
    If can't obtain any of the fast or slow powders, I can get by on the medium-rate ones, until supplies catch up. That's why I usually buy these very heavily.
    If I "luck in" to another propellant not on my list, I'll almost certainly use it, but I usually go right back to using something on my list. I'm prolly missing out on some really wondrous propellant out there, but I'm a little old to be "sleepin' around" on my favorites.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  11. #11
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    My standard .38 Special load is the 160 grain H&G #51 and 4 grains HP-38/ 231. Muzzle velocity is 810 fps in a 4" S&W and about 40 fps more in a 6".
    Another favorite is 4.3 grains, all else the same. Muzzle velocity is about 850-860 in a 4" S&W.

    With the #358311, I like 3.8 grains HP-38/ 231. Muzzle velocity is around 800 fps in a 4" revolver.

    All above loads are accurate. In some guns the #358311 will outshoot the #51 slightly, but in most guns the #51 is a bit more accurate.

  12. #12
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    Sell the Universal and buy more Unique. Sell or trade the HP38 for more Unique!

    CS

  13. #13
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    Scott I started with 38 special loads nearly 30 years ago using HP38 and had great success at target load levels in a 6" K frame Smith using 158 swc and 148 hbwc bullets from Speer. In my opinion, HP38 is a fine powder for 38 special

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott.M View Post
    Thanks. I was gonna ask for a good chicken recipe too, but I you'd probably tell me how you like pork.

    I'm sure you'll win a lot of friends with 20-50 years experience really tripping over each other
    wanting to spend the time to help you with a statement like that one bro.
    Last edited by Winger Ed.; 09-13-2020 at 07:19 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazoo View Post
    HP38 is a good 38 special powder. It also works into the starting magnum range for both 357 and 44 magnum according to my data. It works well for light 38s though. It's the same powder as W231 and data can be used for that if more available.
    Bazoo you are 100% correct! The only difference between HP-38 and Win 231 is the label! Powders come out of the same vat and the only difference being the bottle they put it in and the label they put on that bottle. The data is 100% interchangeable!
    Long, Wide, Deep, and Without Hesitation!

  16. #16
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    Not finding fault (I'm in no position to), but y'all seem to like LRN boolitts (Lyman #358311) an awful lot, over SWCs or LRNFPs. Are the LRNs enough more accurate than the others to offset their poorer terminal performance?
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  17. #17
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    There are many testimonials here and elsewhere as to the accuracy of the 358311. It has survived these many years for a reason. Most shooting is inanimate targets so no downside there.

    I have even made a file trim die to make flatpointed 358311’s to address terminal performance issues on those rare occasions when it is needed, such as for small game or in the reload for my speedloaders in 38. I often carry a 638 as a light duty carry piece. This removes about 10 grains of weight and makes it equivalent to any SWC in effect.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conditor22 View Post
    Lyman #4 says w-231 3.5 675fps -- 4.9 906

    HP-38 is practically the same

    http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manu...-%20Reduce.pdf

    page 267
    HP-38 and Win 231 are the exact same powder the only difference is the labeling the data is 100% interchangeable. I’m not just talking out the side of my mouth I verified this with Hodgdon
    Long, Wide, Deep, and Without Hesitation!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotech View Post
    My standard .38 Special load is the 160 grain H&G #51 and 4 grains HP-38/ 231. Muzzle velocity is 810 fps in a 4" S&W and about 40 fps more in a 6".
    Another favorite is 4.3 grains, all else the same. Muzzle velocity is about 850-860 in a 4" S&W.

    With the #358311, I like 3.8 grains HP-38/ 231. Muzzle velocity is around 800 fps in a 4" revolver.

    All above loads are accurate. In some guns the #358311 will outshoot the #51 slightly, but in most guns the #51 is a bit more accurate.

    Thank you

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    Not finding fault (I'm in no position to), but y'all seem to like LRN boolitts (Lyman #358311) an awful lot, over SWCs or LRNFPs. Are the LRNs enough more accurate than the others to offset their poorer terminal performance?
    In my revolvers, the 358311 shoots better groups at 50 yards than any other boolit. Others are very close but they always get edged out.
    At closer distances, there is little, if any, difference in group size.
    If I were hunting or shooting at two legged critters, I would use something a bit different.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check