Pedersoli Gibbs rifle.

[sharps4590]

Anyone played with one of these? Are they a paper patch bullet rifle or can one successfully and accurately load grease groove bullets? Got a line on one but I've paper patched all the bullets I ever intend to..

[Chill Wills]

I have one. I have competed with both PP and GG bullets and have molds for both. A GG bullet of 0.448-0.449" is what mine likes best. For PP bullets, 0.449"+ is good as the paper will slightly crush to a good fit, the Lead not so much.
I had both Paul Jones and Brooks cut molds for them. Due to no match here and me not going to Oak Ridge in some time, I have not shot mine for years.

[sharps4590]

Chill, may I ask what weight the bullets were and if you used a wad of any kind over the powder? I assume that as this is basically a target rifle, bullets at .448 - .449 will stay against the powder?

I really don't know why I'm looking at this. I have a Shiloh #1 Sporter set up for long range and, as with yourself, I haven't fired it in a couple years and then only at 100 yards....which as you know is a bit boring for a long range rifle. I sure miss my 500 yard range at the farm.

[oldracer]

I have one, the second most accurate rifle I own. I shoot to 300 yards which is only how far our range goes and I shoot both paper patch and grease groove bullets. As strange as it sounds the 520 grain bullet from the pedersoli mold, 90 grains of FFG black powder and NO wad at all gives me the most accuracy. I also have a paper patch mold (forget who) of 560 grains in Creedmoor shape and a Track of the Wolf 540 grain grease groove Creedmoor bullet and both of those I use a fiber wad over 90 grains of FFG powder. I use Doug Knoells solid lube added by pan lube but don't do many as the mice come from miles around as it tastes so good! All the bullets slide down the barrel with no pressure and I just barely seat them on the wad. I did replace my sights with a set from Lee Shaver as they just felt better. It took me 4 years to find a used one, got it from a young fellow in Texas and he shot patched round balls in it for regular off hand matches!
John

[sharps4590]

Good grief!!! A 12 lb. rifle in offhand matches? Welll...guess I can't say much, my one Schuetzen rifle is 11 1/2 lbs. and the other is 12 lbs. and they're for offhand.

John, what's the diameter of your bullets?

[oldracer]

I think they are all 0.451 bore riding pure lead bullets, meaning they slide down with little to no resistance. The twist rate on mine is 1 in 16 and has a very large patent breech. I wipe between shots, one damp and one dry (both sides) and also use the Pedersoli funnel for loading powder in. Check out the MLAIC world championship matches and also the South African black powder websites to see how they shoot them. The trigger is 2#, max weight 12#, sling can be attached in one place so it is wrapped around and tied at the fore end and most shooters shoot prone. I read in one of the rules somewhere is you have two miss-fires when on one string you are out of that section! Pays to have good caps I'd say! The Pedersoli Gibbs has been the 1000 yard world champion if I remember right.
John

[John Boy]

The Pedersoli Gibbs is a match winning rifle
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...fle-t1505.html

[sharps4590]

I have read about the Gibbs/Pedersoli and South Africa several years ago and took note even then. Which is why I'm looking at this one. I might have read another article on the rifle and remembered the accolades the writer bestowed on it. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, pun intended but, Monday is coming....if it's still there. My only.....aggravation.....is I can only get 100 yards here at the house and it's a 40 mile drive one way to a 500 yard range.

I do thank all of you for taking the time to answer my questions.

That was an interesting link Johnboy, thank you.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Not a Gibbs, but I have an early Parker Hale 0.451" Volunteer which is very similar. This rifle like the Gibbs has a fast twist (!:18") Rigby square form rifling and came with a factory boolit mould and sizer serial numbered to the rifle.

Truly, the most accurate muzzle loading rifle I own!

A couple of things which will improve accuracy, use a long drop tube to deposit new powder into the chamber. Shoot 'wet' that is to say, wipe the bore after each shot with 'moose milk' on a dampened patch, leaving the bore just slightly damp for the next boolit. I also coat the boolit in lube and fit a 0.030 wad to the base at loading.

[oldracer]

Some additional info on mine: I use 0.030 wad just sitting on the powder. After 10 or so shots I wipe the patent breach with a home made scraper and clean the goop out. Using "Moose Milk" is about the best I guess. As I said I use pure lead and coat it with the Lee Liquid lube and let it dry more or less before I put lube in the grooves and sometimes I do the lube at the range. That makes my hands mice and soft. I would use either Doug Knoells lube or Steve Garbes lube as they are about equal. On mine the tang staff did not sit up straight so I had to shim one side. The twist rate of mine is 1 in 16, newer ones are 1 in 18 I read. Mine uses 1/4 - 28 nipples and most any #11 cap. The guy that used to do their repairs and such told me to never use a 209 primer adapter. The trigger breaks at exactly 2# with no creep or such, it is not a set trigger. They are not allowed in NMLAIC matches.
John

PS: Buy it or you'll be sorry for ever!

[Chill Wills]

Chill, may I ask what weight the bullets were and if you used a wad of any kind over the powder? I assume that as this is basically a target rifle, bullets at .448 - .449 will stay against the powder?

Sharps4590, The bullet weights of the three main bullets I used were 530 to 540 grains. I had Steve Brooks make two identical bullets for me. Kinda! The bullets were the same length and nose but one was PP and the other was GG. I wanted to test the two with the same loads to see if the PP had a better Bc, as well as if one was the more accurate match bullet.
Yes, in the 16-1 Pb-Sn alloy needed for long range accuracy 0.448 0.449" bullets are the correct size for the Pedersoli Gibbs. Bullets seat firm on the powder and in no way are going to move once seated. I like 0.060" wads. After the powder charge is drop-tubed to the powderchamber a wad is placed square on the muzzle and pushed home in the powder. The 0.460" wad is a friction fit and does not get sideways. Next the bullet is placed in the muzzle and started with the thumb, then 3" in with the ramrod and then you step away to arms length and gently push home the bullet until it seats in top the charge. At arms length you don't have a great deal of down force. That is the point. Do not bounce the rod!

Of note, the British small bore ML rifles were (or close to) .451 and that is where that comes from. The Italian Pedersoli Gibbs rifle use Pedersoli's production barrels which are know to run 0.449". Their broached barrels are very good BTW.

My last trip to Africa in 2006 I shot the international match held in Cape Town and spent a lot of time with there (RSA) BP members as well as other countries. To be clear, the 2006 matches were for Black Powder Cartridge Rifles. There is an almost 100 percent cross over in those countries from BPCR to LRML.

Pedersoli made the Gibbs in two twist rates and two calibers. 45 cal in the long-range version with 18 twist using their BPCR 45 barrels and a short range rifle using a slow round ball twist. If you intend to buy this rifle, get it in writing (money back) that it is the fast twist. I know of a few people that got a slow twist rifle at auction and the seller said, even when asked, it was fast, not knowing there were two kinds made. Then there is the smaller 40 cal long range rifle, which is rare.


Most all of us found accuracy was best using the CCI Magnum #11. Platinum lined nipples are a must. A regular nipple will burn out fast with the high pressure loads. Accuracy is gone in 15 shots. There is a new nipple out there now and I have not used it as of yet.

In those days I supplied GG cast bullets for one of the main mail order suppliers to the Gibbs LRML. I used the Brooks GG mold cast in 20-1 as it was a little blunter than the more streamlined PP bullet with its long unsupported nose.

[oldracer]

I am surprised that more folks have not spoken up with their loads, wads, bullets, caps, ETC, ETC. With the Pedersoli Gibbs it is similar to a newer Sharps or Rolling Block where there can be up to a year of testing and trying and.........! Even though this is an off hand rifle I'd suggest using a solid rest such as a LeadSled or similar to take you out of the picture. I have a couple inches of foam where my butt stock sets against the back of the sled and it is great! As Chill sez, have them test the twist rate and talk them out of some molds!
John

[indian joe]

Anyone played with one of these? Are they a paper patch bullet rifle or can one successfully and accurately load grease groove bullets? Got a line on one but I've paper patched all the bullets I ever intend to..

I watched a bloke shoot a nice 500yard possible (50/50) with one of these and grease boolits a couple years ago - first time he shot it in competition

[sharps4590]

It is advertised as a 1-18 twist and as they are barrel makers and muzzleloader builders as well I suspect they know what they're talking about and, I know a guy who works there. Not a 100% guarantee but I feel as if they're trustworthy. I have one of their custom Hawken's....and it's a shooter!

Chill, John, thank you for your information.

[charlie b]

I really, really, really wanted one a few years ago. So, to see if I would like long range ML I went to a poor substitute, the Lyman GPH. Yes, .50cal and 32 twist so limited on bullets (I was also considering BPCR with the Marlin long barrel). I settled on 450gn as max that the twist rate would stabilize. Shot a lot of GG and PP bullets.

I learned a lot about what it took to get decent accuracy. What I learned more about was that after 10 shots I was done for the day. A 400 or 500gn bullet fired with 80-100gn of powder creates quite a bit of recoil. The Gibbs is a bit heavier than the almost 10lb Lyman, but, it would still get your attention.

So, unless you have fired a steady diet of these kinds of rifles you might want to reconsider.

PS the 'other' nipples are the AMPCO nipples. While not as good as the platinum, they will give you 50-100 shots or so before they wear out.

[Chill Wills]

Hello Charlie. Respectfully, It is not the AMPCO nipple.
Both the Platinum lined and the 'other' are one off shop built. The problem with they are worn out by 50 shots is they are wearing out from the first shot. Accuracy degrades a little with each shot from the first. Match shooters (the Gibbs is a match rifle) can not be competitive with less than consistency from the first to the last shot.

There are a lot of reasons that make this true. Too many to go into now.

[sharps4590]

charlie, I was shooting BPCR in 1986 with a 45-70 and a 520 gr. bullet over 60 grs. of black. Graduated to a 45-90, same bullet, 80 grs. of black, thus my handle. I also was shooting a 300 Win. Mag in 1000 yards matches at the same time. I appreciate the comments but this is far from my first rodeo.

Been shooting muzzleloaders since '75 and I never did get why the "bounce the rod" routine. My neighbor does that and it bugs the crap out of me...lol! Chill, I've always seated the PRB just as you describe except it usually takes two strokes, seat firmly, prime and fire....or cap and fire. I usually shot flinters.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I don't know if it applies to the Gibbs rifle, but in my Pedersoli Sharps, they have a tapered bore giving the barrel a progressive depth rifling. That is to say the rifling is 0.0015 deeper at the muzzle than at the chamber.

The taper was confirmed by a chamber cast and also at the muzzle on all my Sharps as well as my 1886 sporting rifle.

[Edward]

That is an impressive collection , my wall would fall over with excitement /Ed

[indian joe]

I don't know if it applies to the Gibbs rifle, but in my Pedersoli Sharps, they have a tapered bore giving the barrel a progressive depth rifling. That is to say the rifling is 0.0015 deeper at the muzzle than at the chamber.

The taper was confirmed by a chamber cast and also at the muzzle on all my Sharps as well as my 1886 sporting rifle.

Wallace
I have a 1876 Uberti (45/75) with a pedersoli barrel - have not done a chamber cast - but its a beautiful barrel - the best I have had my mitts on .
Shooting a modified CBE 460-535PB ---got him to take the bottom drive band and lube groove off and its casts 466 grains - single loaded over 72 grains FFg so its kissing the lands - I feel like this thing would do MOA with a better driver (or scoped) - came close a couple of times with three and five shots - they do make nice barrels!!!!