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Thread: What are these? .43 Mauser, .44-77, .43 Spanish?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    What are these? .43 Mauser, .44-77, .43 Spanish?

    Buried deep in my stash I found this old brass. The unmarked cases are berdan primed. The UMC cases are boxer. Im not sure what they are. Except for length, they are about the same. What do you think?

    Length: umarked are 2.250", UMC are 2.300"
    Rim: .635"
    Rim thickness: .085"
    Base: .518"
    Shoulder: .515"
    Neck: .463"
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    the unfired is a 43 Mauser. The other I would guess is a 44-77. A 43 Spanish should be a smaller neck.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I believe the cartridge Head stamped UMC/USA is 11mm Mannlicher made by Remington, Metric 11.15x58R Austrian Werndl. The other has the remington ringed base , 44/77 or blown out 11mm Mannlicher
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  4. #4
    Boolit Mold
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    Unfired looks like 11mm Mauser;
    fired case looks like 11.15mm Spanish--the case heads are too small for 11mm Mannlicher/Werndl, and case neck on the Spanish is larger than the standard cartridge dimension because it has been fired.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master corbinace's Avatar
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    I vote 43 Spanish, because of the rim diameter. The others mentioned above have a smaller rim.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Hmmm, quite few possibilities....

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Gents, we went through this over on the ASSRA Forum too ... 3 pages long
    https://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/Y...m=1599843886/0
    BTW ... boxer primers wanting to make 44-77’s out of them
    Regards
    John

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks fellas, I appreciate your thoughts.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Yes I have done some research and have some references,
    ndnchf ... for staters if you had the right reference you would have determined what caliber brass you had:
    Handloader Manual of Cartridge Conversion that will give you all the information you need to determine whether the cases are 43 Mauser - 43 Spanish or 44-77 ... down load it for free ... https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-handloa...165406074.html or buy the paper copy
    * This manual will tell you all you need to know about the 3 calibers, case, bullet diameter that you questioned and loading data ... plus you then know what brass you have and no questions to asked
    * early on ASSRA, determined were not 44-77 ... so stop
    You mentioned you had several Rolling Blocks and wanted a 44-77, SO...
    * Pull a barrel of one and order a 44-77 ;
    * Put sights on it
    * Take the RB tread measurements cut them on the new barrel
    * Order 50 new 44-77 brass from either Roberson Cartridge Co or Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co - they both are lathe turned
    * Buy the 44-77 bullets or cast them and lube them
    * Order a set of dies
    * Reassemble the new barrel to the RB action
    * Rent a chamber reamer
    * You should be able to modify the extractor or order a new one from http://www.rollingblockparts.com/
    * Load the cases with the data from Cartrige Conversions or other source
    DONE - not 4 pages of questions
    Last edited by John Boy; 09-14-2020 at 06:19 PM.
    Regards
    John

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    John,

    Sorry I don't have every reference, but I will download it - thanks. I never said or implied that I wanted to build a rifle. In fact, I bought an original #1 sporting rifle. While I appreciate the guidance and suggestions here and on the ASSRA forum, your ridicule and mean spirited attitude are uncalled for. I will end this discussion here and will also end the ASSRA discussion.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    ndnchf - sorry that got off track a bit. the first case uses the Mauser "A" base. There's only 4 that use that, 11mm Mauser, 11mm Werndl or Mannlicher, 11 Gras and 11 mm Murrata. UMC is a commercial supplier and I know they made ammo for 11mm Mauser and 11mm Mannlicher (Werndl). I don't believe they made any for Gras and quit sure not for the Murrata. You posted numbers rule out the Werndl (Mannlicher) so it's an 11mm Mauser. The other is a guess, probably 43 Spanish as it's pretty common. The numbers aren't conclusive as they wonder a bit from printed sources, such as Cartridges of the World and others. Any of this stuff is 140 years old. There is a guy trying to sell a collection of Mauser 11mm cases on gunbroker. It looks like there were dozens of manufacturing plants. I know the barrels of the 71/84 were gauged and stamped with bore size before rifling, generally plus or minus one half a millimeter ( appx 0.020 inch) so some variation in brass from posted reference is to be expected. hope that helps.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Certainly not the Werndl. The neck looks too short to be Mauser. Barnes mentions a Mauser revival by Krieghoff in the 1920s. Could it be that? Reformed from brass that was made for the original Mauser?

    I find it very hard to believe that Germans would allow that much bore variance!
    Last edited by uscra112; 09-16-2020 at 03:13 AM.
    Eleutheromaniac

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I see I missed a decimal place in my previous post, not 0.02 but 0.002. The 71/84's were gauged prior to rifling or leaving the plant. The bore size is stamped on the left side. Generally 11.00, 11.05, or 10.95 or something similar. I'd have to dig out a book or two to really be correct. Point is they did vary by a substantial amount; 0.05 mm = 0.0019 inches or nearly 2 thousands. We see that in WWll production. With black rifle, the bullet obdurates and it makes no difference. Good eye uscra112.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check