Do you believe in hell?

[Thunder Stick]

I studied the idea of annihilation with great apprehension. I had always believed the (modern) traditional view of hell (this was my fixed belief). But my mind was changed when I looked at all the passages.

My view now is that the teaching of eternal torment is in direct contradiction to the Bible's teaching, contrary to the character of God and an embarrassment to the Church.

Can you cite those actual passages that led you to believe that, as well as the ones that indicate eternal torment is not eternal?

TNX

[Ickisrulz]

Can you cite those actual passages that led you to believe that, as well as the ones that indicate eternal torment is not eternal?

TNX

John told us that "God is love." Can a person wholly motivated by love subject a person to unending punishment for a finite number of sins? It seems incompatible to me and many others. To be honest, I wouldn’t want to see my worst enemy tormented forever. That is not justice, it is sadistic. This is not something the God of the Bible would do. Many are not aware that the idea of eternal torment of sinners was not taught for the first 500 years of Christendom.

There are now three schools of thought on what God will do with the wicked. The first is that the unsaved will go to hell forever and ever where they will be punished continually for their sins. The second is that the unsaved will be punished for a period of time and then be obliterated. The final is that eventually everyone will be saved. The least biblical of the three is the eventual salvation of everyone. The most biblical, in my judgement, is limited punishment for sins (the New Testament clearly talks about degrees of punishment at judgement day) and eventual annihilation.

The Bible’s discussion on what will become of fallen man begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. It is important to consider the big picture rather than concentrate of individual passages. When properly interpreted, the careful reader will see that there is no proof text that says sinners will be tormented forever.

Consider what Genesis says on the matter. "The day you eat of the fruit, you will die." How did Adam and Eve understand the concept of death? My guess is that they had seen animals die. God gave no suggestion of everlasting torment. In fact, Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden to deny them access to the Tree of Life (this is stated plainly). God did not want man living forever in his fallen state. A fallen state brought hardships and misery and God did not want man suffering forever. It is better for a fallen person’s existence to be terminated than it is for him to live forever in a sinful state.

Consider Jesus’ many comments. The idea of everlasting torment came from taking Jesus' parables much too literally. Remember, Jesus was comparing the destruction of the unsaved to trash being burned at their local dump. He was not describing an existing physical location. The unsaved would be cast into fire like agricultural waste. Once dead branches are burned up, they cease to exist. It will be the same with the lost. Consider the Bible’s words used to describe the fate of the lost: perish, death, destroyed. These words do not sound like eternal suffering.

A phrase such as “The fire is not quenched and the worm does not die” has been taken to mean eternal torment. However, when we realize the sinner is not said to exist forever we see something different. In this case, the image is that God's judgement cannot be thwarted.

Revelations talks of sinners being cast into the lake of fire, but does not say they will exist forever. Satan and others are said to be tormented "forever and ever." However, the length of the torment is only said about Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet, not the human lost. In reality there is no phrase in the Greek that means "forever and ever" as we understand it. The Greek says, "unto the ages of ages" suggesting a long time, but not necessarily eternally.

Much has been written on this subject and I'm sure I have not done the topic justice.

[dverna]

John told us that "God is love." Can a person wholly motivated by love subject a person to unending punishment for a finite number of sins? It seems incompatible to me and many others. To be honest, I wouldn’t want to see my worst enemy tormented forever. That is not justice, it is sadistic. This is not something the God of the Bible would do. Many are not aware that the idea of eternal torment of sinners was not taught for the first 500 years of Christendom.

There are now three schools of thought on what God will do with the wicked. The first is that the unsaved will go to hell forever and ever where they will be punished continually for their sins. The second is that the unsaved will be punished for a period of time and then be obliterated. The final is that eventually everyone will be saved. The least biblical of the three is the eventual salvation of everyone. The most biblical, in my judgement, is limited punishment for sins (the New Testament clearly talks about degrees of punishment at judgement day) and eventual annihilation.

The Bible’s discussion on what will become of fallen man begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. It is important to consider the big picture rather than concentrate of individual passages. When properly interpreted, the careful reader will see that there is no proof text that says sinners will be tormented forever.

Consider what Genesis says on the matter. "The day you eat of the fruit, you will die." How did Adam and Eve understand the concept of death? My guess is that they had seen animals die. God gave no suggestion of everlasting torment. In fact, Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden to deny them access to the Tree of Life (this is stated plainly). God did not want man living forever in his fallen state. A fallen state brought hardships and misery and God did not want man suffering forever. It is better for a fallen person’s existence to be terminated than it is for him to live forever in a sinful state.

Consider Jesus’ many comments. The idea of everlasting torment came from taking Jesus' parables much too literally. Remember, Jesus was comparing the destruction of the unsaved to trash being burned at their local dump. He was not describing an existing physical location. The unsaved would be cast into fire like agricultural waste. Once dead branches are burned up, they cease to exist. It will be the same with the lost. Consider the Bible’s words used to describe the fate of the lost: perish, death, destroyed. These words do not sound like eternal suffering.

A phrase such as “The fire is not quenched and the worm does not die” has been taken to mean eternal torment. However, when we realize the sinner is not said to exist forever we see something different. In this case, the image is that God's judgement cannot be thwarted.

Revelations talks of sinners being cast into the lake of fire, but does not say they will exist forever. Satan and others are said to be tormented "forever and ever." However, the length of the torment is only said about Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet, not the human lost. In reality there is no phrase in the Greek that means "forever and ever" as we understand it. The Greek says, "unto the ages of ages" suggesting a long time, but not necessarily eternally.

Much has been written on this subject and I'm sure I have not done the topic justice.

Thanks for your posts....I really enjoy them. Learned a lot from you and you make me think.

[farmbif]

in one of the very earliest versions of the Bible theres a line where Jesus says he will go down to haties and save those who are there. or something to that effect

[1hole]

My understanding is that if Hitler truly accepted Jesus before he died, he is saved, and lives eternity with the Lord. It seems unfair to me, but I am not God.

Your understanding is correct ... IF Hitler "accepted Jesus" in the Biblical way before he died. But we all need to know that heaven isn't awarded for being good and hell is not a punishment for being bad. However, heavenly rewards WILL BE based on how good we live and our depths of eternal hell WILL BE based on how bad we lived.

Thing to remember here is that "bad" people are very unlikely to accept Jesus in the Biblical way on their last gasp.

I struggle with the concept of "judgment" as well. If a person has accepted Jesus as his savior, that person goes to Heaven...what is being judged???

How we live(d) will be judged. And God is a god of justice so we can be sure his judgements and penalties will be fair.

BUT, judgements, as they're usually taught, are quite a bit different from what the Bible clearly says. The BIG question, i.e., will we go to heaven or hell, will NOT be a "heavenly judgement" at all, each of us makes that decision for ourselves before our first death. (John 3:16-18) Therefore, we should strive to choose wisely!

Bottom line, remember this; there is only ONE "sin" that sends anyone to hell and that's the rejection of Jesus as Lord of our lives. Everything else we do will be fairly judged, up or down, on a long scale. Those who reject Jesus as Lord will spend eternity in hell and, at its very best, it will be an unhappy place.

So, up or down? We all know the facts of eternal life and the requirements of salvation are so easy that even a ten year old child can do it so going to either place is rightly our own decision to make, isn't it?

[dverna]

1hole,

What are our Heavenly rewards? Does the house of the Lord have a penthouse? (just joking) Or do some sit closer to God's right hand?

In my simple minded way, I think spending eternity with Jesus, in any capacity, is reward enough. After all, even Jesus washed the feet of His disciples. No task or job in Heaven could be demeaning or unworthy. Maybe the more worthy are tasked to intervene with those on earth who need His help...I just do not know.

[1hole]

What are our Heavenly rewards? Does the house of the Lord have a penthouse? (just joking) Or do some sit closer to God's right hand?

I knew you were joking, but I also know you're serious in the point of your question; we both know scripture doesn't tell us so it's above my paygrade to even speculate. What is NOT speculation is that God does nothing meaningless so our rewards in heaven will be meaningful. I've explained it before for my blessed wife and dirty me. We will all probably have the things in heaven but not to the same degree, such as, we'll all have private transportation. If so, she will likely have a tricked out new Mercedes and I'll have a rusty old Moped.

The question of how long hell will last? Well, the only information we have is that it will be eternal, same as heaven, and that's part of the hell of it. I know of no one who would seek eternity in hell for anyone but we haven't been asked what we think. Ergo, I just trust that God knows what he's doing and knows what's fair for each person; I find rest in that.

...I just do not know.

True, but you know that no one else knows either so asking us for answers is like asking the blind to lead the blind! I have found it interesting to wonder about some unknowns myself but none of it keeps me awake at night.

Paul told Timothy and, by scripture, each of us to study the scriptures for what they actually say but he didn't say we should look for unwritten meanings and inject our ideas between the lines as if what we choose to "think" matters (2 Tim 2:15).

[bakerjw]

I am a very flawed person, yet with very very few exceptions, I could never send anyone to an eternity of torment.

[Thunder Stick]

What I requested of you was a list of scriptures (book, chapter, verse(s)) to support your opinion. That way, I could look at them and learn as you did. Never the less, lets look at something that you posted.

Consider what Genesis says on the matter. "The day you eat of the fruit, you will die." How did Adam and Eve understand the concept of death? My guess is that they had seen animals die. God gave no suggestion of everlasting torment. In fact, Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden to deny them access to the Tree of Life (this is stated plainly). God did not want man living forever in his fallen state. A fallen state brought hardships and misery and God did not want man suffering forever. It is better for a fallen person’s existence to be terminated than it is for him to live forever in a sinful state.

The death that Adam and Eve experienced was separation from God. It is Satan's M.O. to say, "Hath God said?" It's in his DNA. so to speak, because he is the father of all lies.

But back to the issue of eternal punishment and death, here is what God's Word says, with references...

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matthew 25:41

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

Here, Jesus Christ clearly says that there is an eternal punishment by fire and that not just the devil is sent there.

"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:14-15

"And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’" - Mark 9:47-48

Here, Jesus Christ verifies Isaiah 66:24.

These descriptors are not to say God is not loving. They are to say that God is a just God.

"Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. 10But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him." Deuteronomy 7:9-10

[Ickisrulz]

What I requested of you was a list of scriptures (book, chapter, verse(s)) to support your opinion. That way, I could look at them and learn as you did. Never the less, lets look at something that you posted.



The death that Adam and Eve experienced was separation from God. It is Satan's M.O. to say, "Hath God said?" It's in his DNA. so to speak, because he is the father of all lies.

But back to the issue of eternal punishment and death, here is what God's Word says, with references...





Here, Jesus Christ clearly says that there is an eternal punishment by fire and that not just the devil is sent there.





Here, Jesus Christ verifies Isaiah 66:24.

These descriptors are not to say God is not loving. They are to say that God is a just God.

If you are interested in this subject, pick up one of Edward Fudge's books (he's not the only proponent, but he's very accessible). He does a much better job than I can. His books are inexpensive and easy to read. He covers every reference on hell in the Bible. I cannot possible do in one post that which takes him 175+ pages.

As far as Adam and Eve, their primary punishment was death. It was threatened by God and then it happened. Satan said, "You will not surely die." He lied about this because that was the issue that concerned Adam and Eve and kept them from the fruit. Then we see a massive genealogy a couple chapters later that tells about all these descendants with the statement, "and then he died." That was the issue (and it was highlighted over and over), not separation from God. Adam and Eve were driven from the garden, primarily, so they would not eat from the tree of life and live forever.

As far as separation from God, it seemed that Cain and Able had direct access to God in one way or another as did many Old Testament saints.

FWIW:

If you are annihilated from existence, that is an eternal punishment--you are not coming back, you are gone forever.

An eternal fire does not mean that that which is thrown into it exists forever. Whatever is thrown into this fire burns up (think dead branches).

As I have said before, "the fire is not quenched and the worm doesn't die" speaks of the instruments of punishment and God's unstoppable will to punish.

[MT Gianni]

One of the more interesting statements I have seen proposed as fact was " Much of what we know of as Hell, we know because of Dante's Inferno". IOW, much of our supposed knowledge comes from a fictional book. Since God is Eternal, Eternal punishment is His punishment and He sets the terms. I don't believe that will be one size fits most.

[elmacgyver0]

It seems Mr. exile is unwilling to answer his own question, therefor I find it irrelevant.

[Ickisrulz]

One of the more interesting statements I have seen proposed as fact was " Much of what we know of as Hell, we know because of Dante's Inferno".

This is probably true and ironic since Dante's version of hell was freezing with Satan trapped in a block of ice.

I have also head it said that when people read the Book of Jonah they picture him inside the whale like was depicted in Disney's Pinocchio. That is a massive chamber versus Jonah inside a cramped stomach.

[monadnock#5]

It all boils down to the Logic of Opposites: Heaven, Hell; day, night; acid, base; love, hate...and on and on. There can't be one without the other. I don't have to know exactly what Hell looks like or have a copy of the sentencing guidelines to know that I don't want myself or anyone that I know to have go there.

[Texas by God]

Our own death will give us the answer. Don’t you agree?

[dtknowles]

There might be a hell but it will not be a lake of never ending fire and brimstone.
There will probably be punishments and rewards including salvation.
God can punish your soul without any physical fire or contact. God's thoughts can become our pain or our reward. I agree more with Ickisrulz - punishment then obliteration or maybe reincarnation.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Our own death will give us the answer. Don’t you agree?

If death leads to obliteration you may not know anything. Of course if you are saved you will probably know you are saved but that does not mean you will know what happens to those who are not saved. Would you really want to know what happened to your parents if they were not saved? Wouldn't it kind of diminish your salvation to know that your parents are burring in the eternal lake of fire.

Tim

[a danl]

Do you believe in a literal hell?

Is the idea of hell a biblical concept?

Is the idea of hell as an actual place discussed in the New Testament? How about the Old Testament?

Would a loving God send anyone to hell?

Did Jesus talk about hell?

What do you think?

exile

yes, i believe in hell because Jesus warned us more about hell than telling us about heaven. God is a holy God therefore sin has to be punished. also, if there is no hell then Jesus lied and it is impossible for God to lie.

[dangitgriff]

If there is a Hell, governments must surely be its progeny.

[a danl]

There might be a hell but it will not be a lake of never ending fire and brimstone.
There will probably be punishments and rewards including salvation.
God can punish your soul without any physical fire or contact. God's thoughts can become our pain or our reward. I agree more with Ickisrulz - punishment then obliteration or maybe reincarnation.

Tim

the bible tells us what hell is like. just read your bible, it's in there. noone should ever have to go there because it will never end.