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Thread: Leather for PPC Shooting?

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    Leather for PPC Shooting?

    Hello All,

    First off, apologies if this shows up twice. This is my first post on this, or any other internet forum (I guess I've been living under a rock for the last twenty years eh?).

    I've been reading your fine forum for the last year or so (since I started reloading), and thought it was about time I said hello and Thank You for the great reading. Being a city-dwelling Millennial on the Left Coast means I don't have many people around to talk about guns and shooting with.

    I've joined a new club, and I am thinking now is the time to start PPC Shooting. Even though I have the wrong gun for the job (6.5" Model 27-9 Classic, which I like very much, particularly since it was something I waited years for while going through, and paying off, my first round of school). If there are any current or former PPC Shooters out there, I was wondering what holster and belt you use? I will be sure to ask the PPC shooters at the club, but I figured this would be a good way to introduce myself here as well.

    As an aside, I am an apartment-dweller and can't cast my own bullets, but commercially cast bullets are all I have ever loaded, either for my Smith or my Marlin 1894C (one of the new Remington ones, that seems like a fine rifle, particularly since I put the Marbles tang sight on it, that makes me look like I can shoot). I haven't started loading for my "old" Kimber Royal II .45 yet, but when I do, all it will get fed is cast lead. Lead just plain works. And it's cheaper than jacketed bullets. Which is not a bad thing at all.

    Thanks for your time and input. Take Care/ Stay Well,

    JB

  2. #2
    Boolit Master corbinace's Avatar
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    Greetings and welcome to the forum.

    While I have never shot PPC, I have shot a lot of other games. My thought is that you need to show up on practice nights and go to a match or two with whatever scabbed together rig you happen to have. Nothing wrong with that Uncle Mikes nylon holster at the bottom of the bin for getting your feet wet.

    Many of your fellow shooters will have a gob of stuff that they have graduated away from or just fell out of love with, that they would gladly give you so that you can keep coming out.

    Bottom line is to try to avoid spending a bunch of cash until you have done and seen enough to know what makes sense for you. There will be plenty of time to spend money once you get going and start to be competitive. We have to walk before we can run.

    When I started shooting IPSC, my local club let me shoot a Ruger Mark ll out of the venerable nylon Uncle Mikes holster. My two kids didn't have to go hungry and I got to play. Later, I finally was able to scrape up enough money to get a G17 and Glock plastic holster. Later a G17L and Safariland holster and many hundreds of thousands of rounds were consumed. Long story short, those humble beginnings allowed me to be one of the best stock gun shooters in the state at the time, and took me all over the west coast for matches. Ahh, the glory days. Sadly, that is far from the case today.

    Again, welcome to the best forum on the web. You will find a wealth of information here and usually not have to read through such a long winded tome as this. It is late for me (not only in the evening) and I was feeling wistful for my past endeavors. Keep us posted as to how you are progressing along. We love to hear others stories of trials and successes.

  3. #3
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    In days gone by (many days!) I used to shoot PPC in California, and knew some of the best shooters and pistol mechanics.

    Most of the shooters I knew used police issue holsters which were nothing special. Most were open top sheath-type with a safety strap. But the sport evolved, with speed loaders, then specially made speed loaders; and specially made holsters that expose most of the pistol for ready deployment, but which would be entirely impractical for street carry, which took one of the "P"s out of PPC.

    The guns also evolved from standard issue revolvers to those with heavy bull barrels, and some with unusually long barrels like 8 3/4 inches. The thing is that everyone is always looking for an edge that will improve their scores by even a point or two, often enough to win a match where shooters are pretty evenly matched and often some perfect scores are fired, and the winner determined by the number of "X"s.

    It's great fun (PPC), but if you want to be competitive there will be a significant financial outlay. I would not necessarily disparage your Model 27 for starting in the sport, but you'll most likely observe and admire some of your fellow shooters revolvers and find yourself buying something else. The fact that it is a .357 Mag. doesn't necessarily mean that it won't shoot .38 Spec. wadcutters with good accuracy, but usually the revolvers chambered specifically for .38 Spec. will have an accuracy advantage. However, I had a friend who used a Mod. 19 while I was using a Mod. 14, and he outshot me by a couple of points on a regular basis. I bought a Mod. 19 just like his and it was not quite as accurate as his, as he verified by shooting through the course with it a couple of times. So, there's always the exception.

    As for bullets, I used to buy them in bulk and used 148 gr. hollow base wadcutters, but did all right with double ended 148 gr. wadcutters as well. When I didn't have time to reload we were fortunate to have a local ammo reloading company, the owner of which was also a competitor and who used his own commercial reloads to win many titles and trophies. So a bag of his reloads would do fine, and they were reasonably priced. Most of the competitors that I knew used a standard load of 2.3 to 2.5 gr. of Bullseye under the wadcutters.

    Welcome to the forum. I'd be interested in hearing about your impressions and experiences with PPC. Good luck with this.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    I was another PPC competitor. When I started competing, I used a 6” Model 19 and Bianchi leather. After some success, I traded up into a Davis competition Model 64 and a plastic trough holster for Open class. Duty class I used my Model 15 and duty leather. Off Duty used my Model 36-1 and Safariland leather.

    I guess my point is use what you got! Fancy gear does not make you a competitor. Putting bullets in the X ring makes you a competitor.

    Good luck.

    Kevin
    Knowledge I take to my grave is wasted.

    I prefer to use cartridges born before I was.

    Success doesn't make me happy, being happy is what allows me to be successful.

  5. #5
    Boolit Mold
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    Hello Corbinace and Thanks for the welcome.

    No worries about the long tome. That's one of the reasons I came here. I like stories (first Degree was History). I do have a holster and belt for the Smith, nice ones at that. A "Patton" holster and a cartridge belt from El Paso. The belt won't hold Speed Loaders. But I'm thinking for a while anyway, I would like to hold the Speed Loaders in my pockets, and top up from the belt loops when possible.

    When I bought the 27, I decided I wanted some more traditional leather for it, it being a descendant of the first Magnum. PPC hadn't entered my mind yet. The leather was bought more with the idea that it would be really neat to head to the States someday and hunt a hog with the Smith. Handgun hunting isn't legal here, but it looks like really good fun so...

    You're absolutely right about not wanting to spend a bucket of money. Not really an option right now anyway (school).

    Thanks Again,

    JB
    Last edited by JBinBC; 09-05-2020 at 06:32 PM.

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
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    Hello DG,

    Thanks for the welcome and Reply.

    Sounds like my current rig is more in line with what used to be the thing.

    It will be a good while before I am competitive. What I'm looking for is fun, fellowship with the new club and improvement in my Service Pistol scores (I do pretty well, but want to do better). Eventually, I would like to be competitive, and I aim to be so.

    The Smith shoots commercial Button-Nose wadcutters pretty well with a charge of 3.3 grains of Red Dot. It also shoots commercial 158 SWCs with 5 grains of Unique like a house on fire (all in .38 cases). From a rest at 25M it shoots one ragged hole with that load. Slow-fire DA standing I can put five rounds into an inch and three quarters with that load. I'm sure I can make the gun work. I just picked up a can of 700x as it works out to be about eight bucks a pound cheaper than the Alliant Powders. I'm curious to see what I can come up with load-wise.


    I'll be sure to check in and let you all know how I get on. I'm glad I finally took the plunge and registered here.

    Take Care,

    JB
    Last edited by JBinBC; 09-05-2020 at 06:33 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Mold
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    Hello Kevin (do I use that name, or your screen name? Sorry not too sure what the manners here are),

    Thanks for the welcome and the reply. It seems like I'm getting good advice here. And it is definitely welcome advice. At work we use Bianchi Universal Flap holsters, and with practice, they work just fine.

    Thanks and Take Care,

    JB

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    Rick Hodges's Avatar
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    Back when I shot PPC I used my duty rig that used a cartridge slide for reloading. Used my duty gun, a Model 66 S&W as well. I never won but was competitive. I figured it was training for me so I used what I had to carry on the street. It was fun too. My only concession to the "game" was using wadcutters instead full house magnum loads.

  9. #9
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    garandsrus's Avatar
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    There is only one stage where reloading quickly is important, the first one. 12 shots in 20 seconds at 7 yards from a loaded and holstered gun. Here is the full reduced course (50 feet):

    PPC – Combat Course of Fire
    60 Rounds total
    6 Rounds on speed loader or magazines
    Time starts with gun in holster, includes reloading

    “A” Target (30 rounds)
    STAGE 1
    7 yards, 12 rounds, 20 seconds, two hands, standing, double action
    STAGE 2
    50 feet, 18 rounds, 90 seconds, two hands, double action/ 6 shots kneeling, no barricade/6 shots standing, gun in left hand against left side of barricade/ 6 shots standing, gun in right hand against right side of barricade

    “B” Target (30 rounds)
    STAGE 3
    50 feet, 6 rounds, 12 seconds, two hands, standing, double action
    STAGE 4
    50 feet, 24 rounds, 2 minutes and 45 seconds, with two hands, single or double action/ 6 shots sitting, no barricades/ 6 shots prone, no barricade/ 6 shots standing, gun in left hand against left side of barricade/ 6 shots standing right hand against ride side of barricade

    Reloading from a shotgun type pouch would work fine. Along the same lines, I dump my spent brass into a 5 gallon bucket that I move around with me. It beats picking the brass up off the floor.

    Have fun!

  10. #10
    Boolit Mold
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    Hello Mr. Hodges,

    Thanks for the reply.

    I'm looking at it as a form of training myself. It's too bad I can't write the components off on my taxes as a consequence.
    As an aside, a Model 66 was the first revolver I ever fired.

    Cheers,

    JB

  11. #11
    Boolit Mold
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    Hello garandsrus,

    Garandsrus eh? That sounds like my kind of toy store....

    Thanks for the post. Particularly the tip about the brass bucket. I use Startline .38 brass, which seems to last forever. I'd hate to lose it needlessly.

    Cheers,

    JB

  12. #12
    Boolit Master JMax's Avatar
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    I was a serious competitor, made master class with one foot in the grave for high master. Your 27 is a good place to start, my leg match revolver was a 6” 585 and my match revolver was a 6” heavy barrel model 10 with an aristocrat rib.

    A 1500 match has 48 rounds out of 150 fired at 50 yards consisting of 6 shots right hand right side of the barricade, 6 left hand left side, 6 shots sitting and 6 shots prone. This is done twice during the match. The rest is fired at 7, 15 and 25 yards. The match is won at 50 and lost at 25 yards.

    I still have my open top k-frame holster and one for an n-frame as well.

    These matches are a great way to gain accurate double action shooting skills that carry over to ICORE or IPSC.

    Have fun.

    As a side note I was match winner at the Canadian IPSC nationals at the Pitt Poulder range in BC in 1982 and my PPC shooting gave me the edge in accuracy.

  13. #13
    Boolit Mold
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    Hello JMax,

    Thanks for the reply. I think this is going to be a lot of fun.

    I had an etiquette question for anyone who might care to answer it. I would like to ask what range I ought to zero my sights for. Would it be OK if I asked that here, or would taking the thread away from the original topic be putting my foot in my mouth? Kind of a silly question, but I'm new to this, and don't want to be breaking rules of a house I just walked into.

    Oh, as an aside. Unless Google is lying to me, the Range you visited in 1982 is still open. But in winter they are a "If you don't have snows and four wheel drive, forget it bud" destination.

    Cheers,

    JB
    Last edited by JBinBC; 09-06-2020 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Idiotic Typo

  14. #14
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    garandsrus's Avatar
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    You will need to see what matches are local to you. I have only shot the 50’ match, which is an indoor match, so the sights are set for that. The 12 shots at 21 feet don’t require anything different. If you are shooting the outdoor match, you will shoot multiple distances up to 50 yds.

    Here’s how the dedicated PPC guns are adjusted for each yardage: https://www.aristocratproducts.com/page1.html It’s a pretty cool setup and works very well. Each of the three positions is adjustable without affecting the other ones.

    One other interesting point is that some of the better shooters have their sights adjusted so that they hold on the neck of the target and the shots go into the center. This allows them to have a smaller aiming point for better consistency. You can’t always see the scoring rings on the target so have to shoot center mass.

  15. #15
    Boolit Mold
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    Hello Again,

    Thank you.
    The match near to me is 50 yards outdoors. Well 50m actually, just to make things metric and slightly more challenging. Metric's all well and good, but it doesn't belong on shooting ranges, or highways. Though when High Test was $1.79 something per Liter here a few years ago, I guess that made it easier to gas up my Aurora. Easier than paying $6.75 a gallon anyway....

    Looks like I will get to shoot my first match in October. So I will leave you folks be until then. I've got loading to do. During the lockdown, when Church and the Range (my two "Happy Places") were closed, I loaded up half a Costco nut jar full of .38 wadcutters. Quality time with the Press was a real morale booster. Some idiot (me!) burned up the lot in July. And boy did that Red Dot smell good. Bacon and coffee good.

    Cheers All. Thanks Again for the info and the welcome.

    JB

  16. #16
    Boolit Master JMax's Avatar
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    I would zero at 25M and know where your hold over is at 50M. The key is have loads of safe fun, go in with open eyes and keep your expectations realistic.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
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    Haven't played that game in a lot of years. Started shooting a 6 inch K38. Graduated to a couple of different heavy barrel 6 inch custom guns built on S & W Model 10 frames. Tried many different sets of grips over the years but finally settled on a set of Hogue grips. Stay away from soft rubber grips, as depending on grip pressure, can cause your point of impact to change. The whole time, I used a surplus police Sam Browne style belt a triple speed loader pouch and a open front holster that fit whatever gun I was using at the time. For speed loaders, I stayed with the HKS. They weren't the fastest, but seemed to be the most dependable to me. They didn't have the springs to fail that most of the other had. A reloading block drilled out to fit the cartridges and speed loaders and wither a 5 gallon bucket or a plastic tray with a handle to hold your gear.

  18. #18
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    Lakehouse2012's Avatar
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    JBinBC- Garandsrus is right on the money with his posts, just like the others, he's also a buddy of mine

    A suggestion I'll make for your rig, just like the 5-gallon bucket Jon uses, I designed up a ring that goes around the top perimeter of the bucket so you can stage all your rounds for the match and use a speed loader to pick them up and place in the cylinder.

    Whats better, is that the design is free, I posted the design for K and L frame up here. IF you know anyone with a 3D printer, they could make it for you in less than a day and they work great: here's the link: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4087147

    I'm thinking about how to 3D Printing holsters, but havent had time to sit and do the CAD work. Hope this helps.


    Quote Originally Posted by garandsrus View Post
    There is only one stage where reloading quickly is important, the first one. 12 shots in 20 seconds at 7 yards from a loaded and holstered gun. Here is the full reduced course (50 feet):

    PPC – Combat Course of Fire
    60 Rounds total
    6 Rounds on speed loader or magazines
    Time starts with gun in holster, includes reloading

    “A” Target (30 rounds)
    STAGE 1
    7 yards, 12 rounds, 20 seconds, two hands, standing, double action
    STAGE 2
    50 feet, 18 rounds, 90 seconds, two hands, double action/ 6 shots kneeling, no barricade/6 shots standing, gun in left hand against left side of barricade/ 6 shots standing, gun in right hand against right side of barricade

    “B” Target (30 rounds)
    STAGE 3
    50 feet, 6 rounds, 12 seconds, two hands, standing, double action
    STAGE 4
    50 feet, 24 rounds, 2 minutes and 45 seconds, with two hands, single or double action/ 6 shots sitting, no barricades/ 6 shots prone, no barricade/ 6 shots standing, gun in left hand against left side of barricade/ 6 shots standing right hand against ride side of barricade

    Reloading from a shotgun type pouch would work fine. Along the same lines, I dump my spent brass into a 5 gallon bucket that I move around with me. It beats picking the brass up off the floor.

    Have fun!

  19. #19
    Boolit Mold
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    Hello All,

    Sorry, this will be a quick post. Long day.

    Thanks for the additional tips and info. I must say, I really wasn't expecting all the replies and tips I've got so far.

    Bit of an update, I've emailed the PPC Director; told him the kit I have, and asked if I can come shoot the October Club Match. No reply yet, but that's OK. We all have a lot on our minds these days. Gives me time to get my loading done. I use a Lee Classic Turret (seemed like a good compromise between a Single Stage and a Progressive), which is plenty fast. Or would be if I didn't insist on checking the weight of every charge. That slows me down, but it does make me feel absolutely comfortable with my loads.

    I will let you know how I get on with the shoot. At this point, all I can promise is that rounds will safely go downrange, and will hit the target.

    As a side note, if any of you are being affected by these forest fires, I hope you and yours all stay safe.

    Cheers,

    JB

  20. #20
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    when I used to compete you didnt even need a holster. Clip and speedloader holders yes but there was no need to holster your gun other then when you were done. We shot a 6 shot at 10 fast fire, 12 shots at 15 fast fire and 12 at 25 yard slow fire and course and you could use any revolver in revolver class and any semi auto it semi auto class but could only load 6 in your magazine. No need for a fancy holster because your not drawing and shooting in any section of it. Lots of competitors had shooting boxes that they took from line to line and just used it to hold there gun and extra speed loaders and only put one speed loader holder on there belt.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check