H&G made a really nice mold. All of mine cast like a dream.
OK....so let's see what we have to date:
The #503 IS the Keith designed bullet.
Different manufacturers of moulds may have made some minor changes to the design over time.
It would appear that H&G is the TRUE bullet design but it may have changed a bit over time.
Different manufacturers do different things to designs which apparently pissed off Keith.
Not that it really matters in the big picture but staying within the H&G design, are they all the same with the slightly narrower front drive band?
Or...are there variations on the #503 within H&G?
Collector and shooter of guns and other items that require a tax stamp, Lead and brass scrounger. Never too much brass, lead or components in inventory! Always looking to win beauty contests with my reloads.
Look at my earlier post and it tells of the two different styles of the H&G #503's that I have from the late 70's to late 80's to the Ballisticast #1503 from around 2000. My later H&G and Ballisticast are more true to Keith's wishes than my first H&G even though it shoots very well regardless.
I would love to get my hands on the 41 mag version, but I can't justify the cost and I have to many great performing 41's already. The Saeco 411 being my favorite so far.
The MP 503 clone was copied from a H&G 503 mold that Dale53 supplied. The original MP run was a group buy right here.
Elmer designed the 503 for 44 Mag and the 429421 for 44 Special as 44 Mag did not exist yet.
Lyman reduced the forward band to reduce chambering issues which had an effect on accuracy. I like the forward band just inside the throats.
Elmer used tin/lead alloys and sized .429". Most of us use antimony/tin/lead alloys and .430-.431" seems to work better but tight throats could result in more chambering issues. So forward bands get reduced and chambers made longer. Fit is King. LOL
Mal
Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.
"The MP 503 clone was copied from a H&G 503 mold that Dale53 supplied. The original MP run was a group buy right here.
"Elmer designed the 503 for 44 Mag and the 429421 for 44 Special as 44 Mag did not exist yet."
Lyman reduced the forward band to reduce chambering issues which had an effect on accuracy. I like the forward band just inside the throats.
Elmer used tin/lead alloys and sized .429". Most of us use antimony/tin/lead alloys and .430-.431" seems to work better but tight throats could result in more chambering issues. So forward bands get reduced and chambers made longer. Fit is King. LOL"
When was the #503 H&G designed for the 44 Mag by Mr. Keith?
Last edited by 44MAG#1; 09-04-2020 at 10:27 PM.
You would ask that. I'm up to early 1969 and he's still touting the 429421, all 3 versions so it would be after that. His H&G 41 Mag bullet was already in production then as was his connection to H&G. The article: Elmer Keith picks his favorite loads for handguns. I have everything I ever found on Elmer archived it's just finding the right piece.
The 503 is in the 1975 H&G catalogue, still looking.
The 1990 H&G catalogue shows a wider front drive band than previous drawings and claims to be an Original Keith Design. The illustrations are all hand drawn sketches though.
Last edited by Mal Paso; 09-05-2020 at 12:07 AM.
Mal
Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.
So going that he is up to 1969 and he is still touting the 429421 then the 44 mag had been out since 1956, I believe. So he evidentially worked up the "Keith Load" with the 429421.
I wonder which one of the 429421 bullets he used? How many versions of the 429421 had there been up to the 44 Mag introduction?
The Keith Load is mentioned in the 1969 article written by Keith. He was absolutely right! Magic happens at 22g. I've has ESs of 10 fps across 2 6 shot strings at 1500 fps! It's also above max pressure for 44 Mag. He also says the wide full front band was to reduce skidding as the bullet engages the rifling and spins up.
Mal
Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.
Some of my questions have been injected in the quoted feature.
In all of this my main question still is: When was the H&G 503 bullet added to the H&G lineup? Did Mr. Keith ever use the narrow front band H&G 503 bullet or were the bullets he used all the "normal" wider front band?
What did the first Ideal 429421 bullet look like and what year did they change the design for the first time? How much did they change it? What version did Mr. Keith use in working up the "Keith Load"?
I find all this interesting.
6 inch, 4 inch about 100fps slower. There is lot to lot variation in 2400 and I have recorded faster.
Your pics.
Mal
Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.
I have on old Gun Digest from the early 60's that in the back list many manufacturers. I remember a listing of cast bullets from the old Markell Cast Bullets and the show the 250 grain Keith listing it as "a man's bullet" and it looks like the Keith with all wide bands and squared grease groove but I don't remember if they list which mold company. I will try to find it and see.
EDITED -- The Blue bullet is an OHAUS, not an IDEAL, I was mixing it up with my 368477
Here's an old OHAUS 44-250-K, compared to my ARSENAL #503
In my mind, the 503 is what Keith described, and the OHAUS has deviations from the Keith design.
smaller crimp groove
smaller front band
smaller rounded lube groove.
both shoot well, but I sold the OHAUS 2 cavity, as I wanted more production.
I think the ARSENAL 503 is just right.
( IDEAL is blue, 503 is clear coated)
Last edited by derek45; 09-05-2020 at 11:59 AM.
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NRA LIFE Member
USPSA/IPSC
What about the bullet in my #14 post?
another pic of a naked ARSENAL 503 pushed thru a sizer
you can see the front band is getting resized also
.
NRA LIFE Member
USPSA/IPSC
There is a previous thread on this subject from 5-8 years ago. Username: "GLL" took incredible photos of all the different 503's he owned and posted them here to Cast Boolits. After a long back and forth what I recall was we all agreed that in the time before ISO 9000/9001 standards, there was significant variation in "official" projectile designs from *everyone* including Hensley & Gibbs. Wayne Gibbs told me their "design ledger" was a piece of plywood with the actual bullets of each design sitting in shelves. When they needed a new cherry, they took the bullet down from the board and cut the cherry....by hand.
Here is a photo of the Hensley & Gibbs Bullet design board:
I have 503's from the 50's to the late 90's. And the only ones that appear to be true to the "three equal driving bands" were the ones from the late 80's to business closure (1999). All were made by Wayne Gibbs.
This mould is from the early 1990's, best I can tell. And the front driving band is the thicker style.
Here is the link to the mould photo:
https://www.hensleygibbs.com/TCD/hol...s/image005.jpg
This is a early 60's mould. Regard the thin front driving band:
Last edited by Texasflyboy; 09-11-2020 at 05:04 PM.
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