Aspiring master thread for BLACKPOWDER .44WCF/.44-40

[Captain*Kirk]

This is a great thread...thanks for starting it! Just getting into loading for .44-40 as I have a Navy Arms Winchester '66, I've loaded up 50 rounds of 200gr bullets over 7gr of Unique but have only managed to shoot off about 10 rounds so the jury's still out. Looking forward to brewing up some BP rounds with the same bullet and also chrono'ing both. Need to keep pressures low due to the brass receiver.

[Oyeboten]

What occurs to me with all this is how with BP, a heavier Bullet tends to mean higher FPS ( assuming one can keep the same Powder charge ), and that all these referecnes of course are about Rifles and none for Revolvers.

Given that the powder charge of .44 - 40 is the same as .45 Colt, but a usually 205 or so grain Bullet, instead of 265 grain, if I wanted a little more oomph with BP, I'd find or make or get made, a Mold for throwing a 245 or 260 Grain Bullet.

I have two old Revolvers in 44-40 but i have not loaded for them yet.

It'd sure please me to find a Mold for throwing a 245 or 260 Grain DEWC if such existed...

A Revolver would not care if the Bullet is a flat front all meplat Wadcutter...where the Tilt-feed of a Lever-Action Rifle likely would.

[Savvy Jack]

What occurs to me with all this is how with BP, a heavier Bullet tends to mean higher FPS ( assuming one can keep the same Powder charge ), and that all these referecnes of course are about Rifles and none for Revolvers.

Given that the powder charge of .44 - 40 is the same as .45 Colt, but a usually 205 or so grain Bullet, instead of 265 grain, if I wanted a little more oomph with BP, I'd find or make or get made, a Mold for throwing a 245 or 260 Grain Bullet.

I have two old Revolvers in 44-40 but i have not loaded for them yet.

It'd sure please me to find a Mold for throwing a 245 or 260 Grain DEWC if such existed...

A Revolver would not care if the Bullet is a flat front all meplat Wadcutter...where the Tilt-feed of a Lever-Action Rifle likely would.

Typically the heavier bullet will have more lead/pending mix. The less lead seated in the bullet as it gets longer, the less accurate it has been in my experience...could just be me.

In order to get a heavier bullet in the 245-260 range for the 44-40, you will need a longer bullet which means it will probably need to be seated deeper than .300ish" There are several issues here, one being the length of the neck. Another is the amount of black powder that can hold.

Sharp listed a 250gr for the 44-40 with smokeless powder but I have no idea what the design was.

What I don't recall is velocities I got with what loads. While original 45 Colt full power loads produced 1,050fps, the military's reduced loads only produced 738fps. What I do remember is that in my testings with the 44-40 and 45 colt with black powder, there was only 100ft lbs of energy difference in the max difference of the two. Thus with the typical reduced 45 loads, the 44-40 was more powerful with the 200gr/217gr.

[Oyeboten]

Typically the heavier bullet will have more lead/pending mix. The less lead seated in the bullet as it gets longer, the less accurate it has been in my experience...could just be me.

In order to get a heavier bullet in the 245-260 range for the 44-40, you will need a longer bullet which means it will probably need to be seated deeper than .300ish" There are several issues here, one being the length of the neck. Another is the amount of black powder that can hold.

Sharp listed a 250gr for the 44-40 with smokeless powder but I have no idea what the design was.

What I don't recall is velocities I got with what loads. While original 45 Colt full power loads produced 1,050fps, the military's reduced loads only produced 738fps. What I do remember is that in my testings with the 44-40 and 45 colt with black powder, there was only 100ft lbs of energy difference in the max difference of the two. Thus with the typical reduced 45 loads, the 44-40 was more powerful with the 200gr/217gr.

My thought was, a 'Can of Beans' all meplat Wadcutter of 245 grains or so, for Revolver, where it would seat to same depth as the 210 Grain smallish-flat-Nose meant for the Lever Action Rifles...and given this is over compressed 3F Swiss Powder, even if it did need to seat a tiny bit deeper with a tiny bit more compression to have factory spec OAL, or, even if I held it out a tiny bit so as not to be any deeper than the top of the neck-down transition in the case, it would be just fine.

I have such Boolits for .44 Russian, 246 Grain I think...so I might just see if I can size them down a tiny bit for my .44 WCF Revolvers.

My little avatar is an image of .45 Colt done this way, 'all Meplat' .454 boolits, where I held them out a little..this was with Starline Brass and 40 Grains of Black Powder and a lot less Case volume than the old Cases had and the image is from about 14 years ago.

I since realized I can simply compress more to get normal seating depth, even in Starline, but any more, I prefer to just use the old 'Balloon Head' Cases which I am happiest with and which are in best keeping with my old Revolvers.

[Dave T]

Oyeboten,

Curious where one finds a supply of

old 'Balloon Head' Cases

. I bought 50 NOS 45 Colts at a gun show about 25 years ago but have never seen any for sale since.

Dave

[DaveM]

...

NEW BRASS
New Starline brass can be loaded WITHOUT resizing if the loader uses a full case load of black powder to keep the bullet seated. There is nothing wrong with the new cases NOT having a bottle-neck form. The only issue a handloader may find with not resizing new brass is the amount of neck retention needed and the size bullet being used. ...
.

Another issue that I experienced was with an Uberti Bisley in .44 WCF, earlier this year. I loaded up some ammo in new, unsized Starline brass, and some of them took a bit more force than the others to chamber. OTH, I've never had this problem with my Uberti 1860 Henry or 1873 Sporting Rifle.

So, with some guns, sizing new brass may be useful.

[Savvy Jack]

Another issue that I experienced was with an Uberti Bisley in .44 WCF, earlier this year. I loaded up some ammo in new, unsized Starline brass, and some of them took a bit more force than the others to chamber. OTH, I've never had this problem with my Uberti 1860 Henry or 1873 Sporting Rifle.

So, with some guns, sizing new brass may be useful.

Great information.

[Oyeboten]

Oyeboten,

Curious where one finds a supply of . I bought 50 NOS 45 Colts at a gun show about 25 years ago but have never seen any for sale since.

Dave

I get them where and when I can...

My Revolvers are all old, so, this is how I wanted it anyway...took a while, but I got there!

If you do not need or use the 50 .45 Colt cases you have, I'd love to buy them from you..!

I have a hundred or more new un-used 'Starline' I do not need.

[Oyeboten]

Another issue that I experienced was with an Uberti Bisley in .44 WCF, earlier this year. I loaded up some ammo in new, unsized Starline brass, and some of them took a bit more force than the others to chamber. OTH, I've never had this problem with my Uberti 1860 Henry or 1873 Sporting Rifle.

So, with some guns, sizing new brass may be useful.

Chambers can differ a little...

Otherwise, all the new Starline Brass I have used was a little undersized for the Chambers of my Revolvers and had to be expanded just to accept the Boolits...and or was 'nominal' in diameter on the whole.

[Old School Big Bore]

I just came into a batch of .44-40 loaded ammo, new brass and once-fired brass. All my .44s are the newfangled Special and Magnums and I have no use for this stuff, but I do need to recoup some of what I spent for the remainder of the estate stuff. Shall I post the list here for you charcoal lovers or put it in the trading post area? Or you could PM me...

[Savvy Jack]

I just came into a batch of .44-40 loaded ammo, new brass and once-fired brass. All my .44s are the newfangled Special and Magnums and I have no use for this stuff, but I do need to recoup some of what I spent for the remainder of the estate stuff. Shall I post the list here for you charcoal lovers or put it in the trading post area? Or you could PM me...

PMs sent

[Froogal]

Another issue that I experienced was with an Uberti Bisley in .44 WCF, earlier this year. I loaded up some ammo in new, unsized Starline brass, and some of them took a bit more force than the others to chamber. OTH, I've never had this problem with my Uberti 1860 Henry or 1873 Sporting Rifle.

So, with some guns, sizing new brass may be useful.

I always size my new brass. Starline recommends it.

[Savvy Jack]

I always size my new brass. Starline recommends it.

Starline recommends it because of the need for neck retention for smokeless powders when using smaller diameter bullets. It is all about "dimensions", nothing more, nothing less. Everyone and their mother's know that the 44-40's differ from one make and model to the next.

If resizing works for you guys, do it, if not...don't do it. Know and understand the reason behind the application rather than just "Parrott Talk".

[indian joe]

Starline recommends it because of the need for neck retention for smokeless powders when using smaller diameter bullets. It is all about "dimensions", nothing more, nothing less. Everyone and their mother's know that the 44-40's differ from one make and model to the next.

If resizing works for you guys, do it, if not...don't do it. Know and understand the reason behind the application rather than just "Parrott Talk".

Also understand whats happening with the metal ... a lot of shooters dont!

Brass "work hardens" ... what is that ? = the more often and the harder we work our brass through dies the sooner it will quit on us (splits, lengthens and needs trimming, case head separations. etc)

Commercial size dies are mass made to provide a reliable result in all different chambers, including minimum spec ones - so a neck size operation on our 44/40 brass will squeeze it right down undersize, my old RCBS full length die makes a neck diameter of .416" then the expander plug brings it back up to .424" then I insert a cast boolit in there that measures .430"................???? ---thats punishment that brass didnt need .

[Savvy Jack]

Also understand whats happening with the metal ... a lot of shooters dont!

Brass "work hardens" ... what is that ? = the more often and the harder we work our brass through dies the sooner it will quit on us (splits, lengthens and needs trimming, case head separations. etc)

Commercial size dies are mass made to provide a reliable result in all different chambers, including minimum spec ones - so a neck size operation on our 44/40 brass will squeeze it right down undersize, my old RCBS full length die makes a neck diameter of .416" then the expander plug brings it back up to .424" then I insert a cast boolit in there that measures .430"................???? ---thats punishment that brass didnt need .

EXACTLY!

Out of all the 44-40s I have shot, only a very small handfull, maybe 6, have split. ALL were split where the "bulge" was made when using the LFCD on .429/430 bullets.

I have had ZERO splits when reloading High Velocity high pressure, or anything I used the Redding profile crimp die on. BUT the cases necks do stretch with the HV loads.

[Savvy Jack]

I just came into a batch of .44-40 loaded ammo, new brass and once-fired brass. All my .44s are the newfangled Special and Magnums and I have no use for this stuff, but I do need to recoup some of what I spent for the remainder of the estate stuff. Shall I post the list here for you charcoal lovers or put it in the trading post area? Or you could PM me...

Sorry old school, I misunderstood!!! I am looking for old stuff!!!

[indian joe]

EXACTLY!

Out of all the 44-40s I have shot, only a very small handfull, maybe 6, have split. ALL were split where the "bulge" was made when using the LFCD on .429/430 bullets.

I have had ZERO splits when reloading High Velocity high pressure, or anything I used the Redding profile crimp die on. BUT the cases necks do stretch with the HV loads.

We get a few body splits with remington brass in the Uberti chamber - find one or two most times I reload (reload maybe 50 to 150 at the time) did some checking and the Uberti chamber is pretty generous - not seeing it with winchester or starline. No big deal - 44/40 brass is cheap enough.

[Savvy Jack]

We get a few body splits with remington brass in the Uberti chamber - find one or two most times I reload (reload maybe 50 to 150 at the time) did some checking and the Uberti chamber is pretty generous - not seeing it with winchester or starline. No big deal - 44/40 brass is cheap enough.

[Savvy Jack]

Oyeboten,

Curious where one finds a supply of . I bought 50 NOS 45 Colts at a gun show about 25 years ago but have never seen any for sale since.

Dave

https://mewe.com/group/5b1d12a9a40f303c19c2f710

50 new Western headstamp semi-balloonhead cases.

[Oyeboten]

https://mewe.com/group/5b1d12a9a40f303c19c2f710

50 new Western headstamp semi-balloonhead cases.

How can one find this there?

I scrolled down a long LONG way, and never saw it..!