All Around 44 Mag loads?

[Outpost75]

I don't see one.
I want that Keith in my photo

If you have a dimensioned and toleranced drawing, either scanned, or in AutoCad, or if you can send Tom a well filled-out bullet which he can measure on his optical comparator he will make it for you, send a drawing for your approval, and once ordered you can have the mold in about 3 weeks.

Just curious what specific features on your bullet are you not seeing in the various ones he has made? A wider lube groove is easy, a wider, flat-bottomed crimp groove is easy, anything else?

[44MAG#1]

I have some well filled out bullets. And I can cast some too. I just would hope he could duplicate that bullet is all. No, "Well I thought it needed this mod or that mod" type thing.

[Bazoo]

I'm interested in what's special about that particular bullet.

[ddixie884]

I'm betting Tom can make you a mold that will drop it for you..........

[44MAG#1]

I'm interested in what's special about that particular bullet.

If you will look at the bullets listed in the Keith Sixgun book that bullet is a direct companion of the bullet in the pictures of a 429421 bullet Mr Keith told me on the phone that the bullet in that picture was cast in a original 429421 mold. I asked him in one of the many conversations we had about that bullet. The mold I have is a very, very old single cavity IDEAL 429421 mold.
That is why I would like to have a copy of that bullet in a 4 or 5 cavity mold.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for sharing. I've not had the pleasure of reading Sixguns yet. I can see why you love that bullet so I am serious when I ask; what benefit have you seen in the original Keith bullet vs the clones?

[44MAG#1]

Thanks for sharing. I've not had the pleasure of reading Sixguns yet. I can see why you love that bullet so I am serious when I ask; what benefit have you seen in the original Keith bullet vs the clones?

None really. It is just to shoot a bullet that is as close to the original Keith as one can get nowadays. I shoot others more. The H&G 503, both designs, the Lyman 429421 because a buddy of mine cast them.
The more you will study shooters you will find they are as fickle as anyone else. Jumping to conclusions, Seeking confirmations of their beliefs, etc.

[derek45]

I have Keiths book and the Arsenal H&G 503 clone is about perfect

what don’t you like about it ?

seems more what he described than than the Lyman i had before

.

[Outpost75]

None really. It is just to shoot a bullet that is as close to the original Keith as one can get nowadays. I shoot others more. The H&G 503, both designs, the Lyman #429421 because a buddy of mine cast them. The more you will study shooters you will find they are as fickle as anyone else. Jumping to conclusions, Seeking confirmations of their beliefs, etc.

Part of the problem with the so-called "Keith" bullets is that Elmer was not a technical guy and only gave the mold makers general descriptions and parameters for what he wanted. Whoever then made the cherry, then made it to suit his ideas. Lyman post-1960 messed everything up, using smaller, round bottom lube groove and shorter, undersized front bands which did not fit the typical cylinder throats, as well as other changes which were not consistent in production.

The pre-1970 Cramer, Saeco and H&G molds were a bit closer to what is commonly recognized as the "original Keith" design, but still varied. My high school classmate the late LTC Gregory Kalnitzky favored the Saeco #441 from an old San Diego mold, which he used to kill truckloads of game as a professonal hunter and guide in Alaska, and Africa.

RCBS molds were closer than the Lyman, but IMHO utterly fail because their as-cast diameters are determined by using linotype alloy, which Keith never used, and when cast in common wheelweights or the truer to the orginal form, 1 to 16 or 1 to 20 tin-lead, which Keith favored, will then be about 0.002" undersized, and cannot fit the cylinder throats.

As far back as 1935 in his book Sixgun Cartridges and Loads, Keith realized that cylinder throat and NOT barrel groove diameter was the key to revolver accuracy. Lyman messed that whole concept up for several generations publishing their marketing horse manure to sell sizing dies to make bullets fit the groove diameter of the barrel. THAT wives tale needs to have a wooden stake driven through its heart and then be buried in a hole dusted with black powder, evil black Ideal bullet lube and then torched off, with everyone heaving their Lyman manuals in the fire and when done killing the flame before burying the debris by urinating on the pile with the urine of a six-pack of Lone Star long necks!

Original Ideal molds from the 1930s may be the closest we have to an "original Keith" design, having flat-bottomed lube grooves with a 30 degrees, Basic, draft angle on the sides of the lube groove for easy bullet release, and the depth of lube grooves being a .410-.415 minor diameter at the base chord of a .44, and .420-.425 for a .45, which was necessary for the primitive lubes in use at the time. That lube groove design is appropriate for black powder use with SPG, but is not needed for modern lubes with smokeless powder.

When I discussed front driving band and crimp groove configuration with Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan at Bill Ruger's New Hampshire home, (it must have been 1982-83? when I was still on the NRA tech staff, and met with WBR to discuss employment, but before I actually moved to NH to work for the company) the consensus was that the driving band north of the crimp groove must be full diameter to permit its being sized to fit the cylinder throats exactly, to enable a positive gas seal and guidance during initial shot-start, this factor being critical when .44 Special cases are used in the longer .44 Magnum chamber.

The crimp groove must be adequate to prevent inertial dislodgement in revolvers as well as to prevent "telescoping" due to axial compression by a tubular magazine spring in rifles, that action being aggravated by recoil in heavy loads. Elmer's preference for a wide, flat-bottomed crimp groove was intended to mitigate against variations in case length causing buckling of case mouths when varied lengths of untrimmed cases otherwise had "no place to go." This same condition is more common in the .44-40 due to the thinner mouth wall thickness and fragile construction of those cases.

Elmer also liked a short radius behind the meplat to brake the sharp corner aid feeding if rounds were to be used in lever-action rifles. Elmer never used the .44 Magnum in a levergun to my knowledge, but he acknowledged that having "deer rifle utility" was necessary for commercial success of the .44 Magnum cartridge and he applauded Bill Ruger's efforts in bringing the original "Deerslayer" carbine to market. Skeeter felt the .44 Magnum could replace the .44-40 as a lawman's carbine.

Elmer liked an ample meplat diameter about 0.6 to 0.7 of the bullet diameter, but acknowledges that a larger meplat impaired long range performance of handgun bullets fired in the common 18-3/4" twist S&W barrels, which he normally carried. When asked if he would have done anything differently, if doing it again, he indicated that he could have never anticipated the popularity of handgun hunting and silhouette shooting after about 1980, and would have made the bullet "a but heavier." The 276-grain Corder design from accurate embodies the principles from the composite "dirty napkin sketch" done by Keith, Skelton and Jordan when I was there.

Does any of that help?

[44MAG#1]

Outpost75,

If you were referring your #49 post to me I appreciate it but it was not needed. Hindsight is nothing new. I am sure Mr. Keith and his friends would have done things a lot different after they had time to think said things over after many years. That would go for most of us.
That still does not negate the reason I would like to have the bullet I picture just because of what it is. Is it the absolutely the best, more than likely no. Could it have been more refined, more than likely yes.
Would Mr Keith have drawn up a different design 40 years later after using his original design. more than likely yes. Could I be using a better bullet than the one in the photo by using my two different H&G 503's or the Lyman 429421, probably
Your post was insightful to most and that is the good thing about it. I appreciate it. It helps others to confirm (confirmation bias) what they want to know and believe which is a good thing.
Does it help with my nostalgia, that is another thing entirely.

[Outpost75]

Bottom line is that if you want a modern gang mold which duplicates bullets from a vintage mold which works for you, send a couple sharply cast, well filled out samples to Tom, tell him what alloy you normally use and he can adjust for alloy shrinkage and make what you want. I've done this with several antique molds and have been well satisfied.

[JAC43]

Accurate’s 43-250J was supposedly from an early Ideal 429421 that Brian Pearce had. But 44Mag#1’s bullet looks considerably different. I’d like to have an Accurate mold in that design. It would be mighty generous of you to send some examples to Tom and have him put it onto the website for all to access.

[derek45]

Arsenal H&G 503

[ddixie884]

Deep...............

[BobT]

I've read him saying that he would shoot two cylinders full of his top 22gr 2400 load per week to stay 'in form', and the rest of his .44 Magnum shooting was with his reduced loads. So, ~600rds per year of the full charge stuff, and the rest, whatever it amounted to, of the lighter stuff. That's paraphrased from what I've read, probably in more than one place.

He had a stroke in December 1981, and passed in February 1984. I found a couple of oral history clips on the web, dated September 1981, when he was 82, from about 3 months before he had the stroke. Interesting to hear him in his own voice:

https://www.loc.gov/audio/?fa=partof...r:keith,+elmer

Thanks for posting!

[44MAG#1]

Arsenal H&G 503

No doubt they are good looking bullets. We will give you that. I don't have anything against that Arsenal "503" it is a good looking bullet. But ,and it is a big BUT with me, is that it isn't the bullet I have in my photo.
I shoot Lymans 429421, H&G 503's (Both Designs) and a NEI260429 and a H&G 326 plus a couple I designed within the past year.
I rarely shoot any of the Ideal 429421 I have in the photo because it is an old, very old, single cavity mold.
But if I have a 4 or 5 cavity mold made for it I will shoot it

[Don Purcell]

44MAG#1, what struck me about the Keith bullet you want is the tiny cylindrical ring just above the crimp groove. No one else does that on their molds, the crimp taper ends at the base of the first driving band. We have an almost unlimited supply of molds available that are more accurate and more effective on game but going back and shooting Keith bullets just seems right to some of us.

[1hole]

I’m getting into reloading and am looking for advice on a “Do it all or all purpose load”

I have read and been told about the 9-10gr unique loads with cast bullets. ... I’m thinking a Keith type cast boolit probably powder coated. ... I’m looking for anyone’s general recommendation for these types of loads.

I’ve got ... 2400, Enforcer, True Blue, 1lb of unique,

My 1966, pre-Dirty Harry, M29 really likes moderately hard, plain base 250 SWC bullets, lubed with NRA Alox and sized to .429". (And it still has the original checkered wood grip panels.)

For "lady loads", 10-12 gr. charges of Unique is very good ... but, it's a 44 Mag so ...

Same bullet over 22 gr. of 2400 is what I call my "all around" load; it's good for everything. It's highly accurate and, with a two handed grip, even my wife can handle the recoil without flinching.

I don't use magnum primers except for full charges of H-110/296 but I rarely use such hot loads anyway. I love my Smith but it's not a Ruger so don't try to hot rod it or you'll have sticky cases.

[Rich/WIS]

When I could still shoot revolvers my 6.5" M29 was my favorite shooter. Settled on a load of 9.0 grs Unique behind the RCBS 44-250, moderate power and pleasant to shoot. RCBS made it in two configurations, KT and SWC. Not sure the difference and sold the mold and gun years ago and don't recall which versions I had. Sized .429 they were a good fit for the throat and barrel, and lubed with the old 50/50 Alox lube had no issues with leading.

[Outpost75]

Nice, well-mannered discussion. I've enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks everyone.