Thanks much for the replies, fells!!
I'll throw my .02 in here as I have the same gun as the OP, 1895 CB 26" I also have an 1894 CB 24" in .44 Spec/Mag set up the same way.
Attachment 267295 Attachment 267302
Note Large Recoil Pads attached?
You don't need to run these guns so hard that they knock the snot out of you. You are throwing around 300-400 gr boolits. and they make big holes in anything.
My standard load is RCBS .45-300 FNGC Flat Nose Gas Check, (I don't worry about leading.) over 33 gr of 5744 powder for 1550 fps and decent trajectory out to 200 yards. The nose on this boolit is the same from the crimp groove forward as both the .45-405 and 45-500 versions of the boolit so COAL is always the same and it was designed specifically for Marlin and Winchester Leverguns. I can shoot 50 of these in a morning at a Silhouette Shoot and not feel it later..
Note: Lyman Rear Sight (old steel 66LA) which is adjustable on the fly for whatever distance you are shooting. Mine is sighted in "dead on" at 150 yards 3" high at 100 and 6" low at 200, but I can correct to dead on with the sight in a few seconds. My best group with this gun and load was 5 shots into 1.75" @100 yards. The Front Sight is an XS White Line which is easy to pick up in most lighting conditions.
Attachment 267297 Attachment 267298
My first choice for powder for this Gun and Cast Boolits has always been 5744 by whoever is making it at the time. It is easy to get good results with and is not finicky. 3031 is also a good choice as is H335 for heavy loads.
As far as data for loading this cartridge for these guns no one has gone deeper into it than Brian Pearce in his definitive article in Handloader Magazine Aug 2007 Issue #248 . You need to read it about 50 times to extract all the info that's in there. It is a one stop for all things related to the .45-70 in Marlin Rifles.
You can call Wolfe Publishing (1-928-445-7810) and get a copy and it is well worth the money. There is little about this cartridge that matters, that isn't in that article, and there is 150+ loads using various bullets and powders from Mild to Wild!!!
Attachment 267303
Just FYI,,, I'd start with some lighter boolits and work my way up to the heavier ones as that gun weighs 7 lbs and it will kick the snot out of you with heavier loads. You'll never get good with the gun if it beats you. Mine also has a Gray Coil Recoil Reducer in the Buttstock and it weighs 8 lbs and will still let you know its there with .405's at 1400 fps and with 400's at 1800 fps it will spin your eyeballs.. I can shoot a few of them, like If I got a chance to go Elk or Moose Hunting, but other wise the lighter 300 gr load will do anything needed of that gun. Deer of any size, any pig in the US, and probably Russia. Any Medium Size Game in Africa as well. Not until you get up to Bison or Cape Buffalo or similar sized game do you need the 400+ gr boolits. You need to run them up around 1800 fps so you get a complete pass thru on big animals or cars.
These guns will do just about anything you could need of a Rifle,,, the only thing you need is a few different size boolits, and you are good to go.
My two recommendations for moulds are RCBS .45-300 FNGC and .45-405 FNGC you don't really need anything else. Note: I specify Gas Checked Boolits as the Groove dia on these guns is pretty consistently at .458 and your boolits need to be .460+ to seal tight and not lead. With Gas Checks it is not as critical.
Hope this helps you on your quest.
Randy
Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 09-05-2020 at 05:15 PM.
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
I like that military flathead harley. Navy buddy bought one in San Diego, I rode on the back a bit.
Whatever!
The wla was probably the best Harley ever built(not lookin for an argument on this) if ya look at how the army treated those things during ww2 You'd wonder how did we end up of the Harley of today
Those who would trade freedom for safety deserves neither and will lose both
Last edited by beltfed; 09-23-2020 at 01:49 PM.
..Thanks much for the detailed reply. I have no plans to take a beating with this rig. Just lookin for a good load that'll poke nice holes in deer and pigs without a lot of recoil or blast in the thick. It's got a lotta "me" to push against. I know I don't need a heavier bullet, but there's some novelty to it considering my shooting background and I wanna try that first. That said, I'll prolly end up using the lighter bullets down the line if for nothing other than efficiency. While I don't do a lot of range shooting, these bruisers seem to go thru a # 'o' lead in short order! So I'll def keep those suggestions in mind for when I'm ready for'em.
..That old Lyman peep is surely nice. I didn't know they were finger adjustable. Right now this one's sporting a Williams Ace-in-the-hole picatinny with peep. First reason being I'd like to try the peep and see if I can use it with these old eyes, plus having BUIS. Second being for current uses. I like the option of tossing a QD reflex on it or the thermal if I take it out for pigs. If this ends up being straight traditional daytime only and my eyes cooperate I may look into somethin nice like that to go on it. I read that they aren't that easy to find reasonable.
..Of the three powders the only one I have on hand is the H335. And it was my understanding that it was mostly for full tilt loads. Which I'm trying to avoid, for now. Prolly somethin 14-1500ish. Dunno really. Pookie Trapdoor loadings seem like fun as well. If the 405's beat too much I'll slow'em down till they don't. I know they're pussycats @ 1100fps. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a solid performing 1300fps load. Trajectory is easy enough to deal with and doesn't worry me.
..I've usually been "IMR Adverse" over their long skinny sticks(didn't play well with our Harrell's throwers). But I see 3031 referred to a lot. Is it like that or somethin more like H4198 in form? I'll check into that 5744, too. Easy is good. Tried 30.5 H4198 (per Hodgdon site) and it burned crappy with low velocity compared to the 24" Hodgdon test barrel. We think it's prolly cause of the .457 boolits the Lee mould is throwing. The barrel slugged to .457" groove. Looks like yer sayin I need to be .002" over for a good seal. Not an obturation believer? Haven't tried many different alloys yet as I'm just gettin started with casting. Got a CB mentor helpin me along with it. I'll look for the article as well.. That'd be interesting.
..I'm tryin to avoid gas checks if I can for now. Tryin' to KISS, but then again the GC's may just do that. But adds cost and steps. From what I can tell the check makers are mostly unobtanium now. Gonna piddle around with the PB's and see if I can make anything happen there first since I already have that. I ain't lookin for smokin velocity. Outside of the cutovers, which I generally avoid, shots are mostly well under 100 yards.
beltfed-Nice lookin rig. A 385 @ 1700+ will prolly wake ya up inna mornin'.
Another vote for 3031. And I've noticed not a lotta you guys use/recommend the Lee moulds.
Is that a "get what ya pay for" thing or are they ok to try it out with? Thanks..
15gr of Unique comes to mind. Lots of guys shooting dingers at 1000 yds with it. You might want to drop in to Levergun-Scoundrels.com and take a look around.
Vietnam Veteran (68-69), NRA Life Member
A good book to read is "Forty Years with the .45-70" by Paul A. Matthews, now back to the loading. I like the .405 gr lead loaded with a compressed load of 70 gr of FFFg black powder or 777 FFFg. I use trapdoor loads as they do everything I need done with the Marlin. I do load up to 525 gr lead but it goes in an H&R trapdoor or a Springfield trapdoor made in 1884. Right now, where I live, I am not able to cast so have been buying Laser Cast 405's and using their loading manual. https://oregontrailbullets.com/xcart...oad-manual.pdf
Not the best but till I can cast again it works. For real fun go to black powder and use a good BP lube on your bullet.
HawgBonz,
Actually, I have depleted my supply of IMR 3031 and now am loading
for the '86 using Varget at 50 grains under the 385gr. Meters SO well and is giving me
good accuracy, close to same point of impact so probably similar velocity.
For my more recently obtained Marlin Guide gun, It is one with the porting.( I hate that porting- very noisy on my ears)
I am using the RCBS 300 FPGC.
Last load under the 300 gr bullet was 52 gr 3031. Shot very well, 3 in one inch at 50 yards.
Remember, up here hunting in the North Woods of WI, distance for hunting/shooting is
almost always under 100yds. Probably average shot on deer here is 40-50 yds if that.
beltfed/arnie.
I loaded that Lee 340 in my 1895GG and had good luck with it. I PC'd it to .458. I got a MP 350 (.459) and am getting 2 inch groups at 100 yards with 50 grains of IMR3031 in WW/Hornady brass and Winchester LGR primer. It would probably do better but my rifle has a Stiff trigger. This load doesn't beat me up real bad but hits with authority, Of course to paraphrase what whas already said, you're throwing a 300 plus grain bullet downrange, whatever it hits is going to feel it.
Power: As a black powder cartridge, the 45-70 was responsible for most of the bison kills back in the day. (the Sharps bigger cartridges were too late.)
Recoil pads: The best I've used are the thick Past brand, and even better is suede patch sewn to the shoulder area of a Stearns life jacket filled with its 1/2" semi-rigid plastic foam. A former work mate used that on his 30-378 and 340 Wby rifles when developing hand loads. when I asked him where he was when I started abusing myself 30 years before, his reply was he hadn't been born yet. :<(
The 300gr. RCBS drops too small for my `95 cowboy gun and is not accurate, the Lyman Gould 322 gr. hollow point is accurate and so is the LBT 420 gr. , the NOE 350 gr. and 400 gr. Hollow points are also very accurate. Enjoy!!
Got somethin to work with thanks to Dusty and you fellas!!
..I wouldn't feel too awful bad huntin this load. From ~85 yards, which is where I generally like to zero. I can't find it right now but somebody told me to try "not over 13gr" of Unique. I tried 12.9gr and got this (1120fps avg). Lyman 457193 as dropped (.461ish, 16:1) seated to 2.565" OAL with the brass ran over the TOTW 460" neck expander. Much over that OAL hangs up in the 1895. I think the case mouth is forward of the crimp groove if that matters.
..Accuracy also improved with the 2400 and H4198 loads. These load's POA/POI is for practical purposes essentially the same at the specified yardage even at a hundred or so fps difference. So for current uses all could be interchanged. I also picked up some 5744 and 3031 to try.
Tried the 5744 and 3031. No thanks on the 3031. Tried the lowest load first and while tolerable, it's more than I feel like taking even for just hunting.
As I understand it the "divot" will be big enough as is.
The 5744 was just right ~1360ish with 25.5gr. Mildish recoil. 1.25" @ 90. That'll hunt.
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |