Bullet runout Progressive vs Turret vs Single stage

[M-Tecs]

Lots of assumptions being made as to what real benchrest shooters use. BR is not my game and I don't compete in that discipline, however, I have barreled several 600 and 1,000 bench guns. At least on the long range side Redding neck bushing dies are common. While I don't know him well I have a dinner with Richard Schatz several times. Of course the topic of conversation was equipment and techniques.

This record and article below was from 2004 and Richard has bested it many times but it details his loading equipment. As of three or four years ago he was still using the same reloading techniques with the addition of neck annealing and possibly neck turning. He also switched from the 6mm Dasher to the 6mm Bra.

https://www.6mmbr.com/schatz1000.html

Reloading Procedure & Equipment
Dies are Redding Competition Seater and Competition bushing neck-sizer with sleeves reamed by Dan Dowling with the 6 Dasher chamber reamer. Rich uses a .267" Redding bushing, giving about .002" of neck tension, and sizes most of the neck, leaving about .060" un-sized below the bearing surface of the bullet. He has a custom full-length die, but he only full-length sizes a couple times a year. Normally he merely neck-sizes the cases with a very tiny bit of home-made lube on the necks. Rich doesn't turn necks, but he deburs the flash-holes and chamfers the case mouth inside and out. Primer pockets are cleaned with a brush but not uniformed with a tool. When the barrel was new, bullets were seated close to the lands, but when he set the record, he estimates the ogives were about .015-.020" from the lands. Press is a Harrell's Benchrest Turret model, set tight, but still able to turn.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...azingly-small/

[onelight]

Wow !
What a group .

[jmorris]

I have lots of presses from arbor to automated progressives, the components and dies matter more than what press I use them in.

If you think things have to be done slowly by hand to have little runout for get some decent factory ammunition like Federal Gold Match and test it for run out, while you are, remember it is made by the thousands per hour.

Google David Tubb and John Whidden, for their accomplishments in rifle shooting using progressives presses for loading.

[jmorris]

I'm assuming that runout and poor accuracy go hand and hand. I'm also assuming that the play in the shell plate or turret is adding to the runout/accuracy issue.

The answer to the first depends. Doesn’t really matter what it is as a loaded round as far as run out is concerned, what is it after it is chambered and or fired, those are not always the same thing. One reason why seating out to the lands, has its proponents.

Also both of the above actually have modified tool heads so they “float” not unlike a die in a Forster co-ax.

[1hole]

Press is a Harrell's Benchrest Turret model, set tight, but still able to turn.[/I]

Any turret that can rotate must have some "slop" or it couldn't turn at all. That agrees with my assertion that wrenched down dies are not mandatory for precise case to die alignment.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...azingly-small/
[/QUOTE]

That's quite a nice group, I wonder how often he can duplicate it.

> As an aside from all this reloading minutia, any winning BR competitor can confirm that the shooter's ability to dope the wind becomes progressively more important as the ranges increase and the winning groups get smaller. Since wind is invisible, even with range flags, most screamer groups must involve a good bit of luck.

[M-Tecs]

That's quite a nice group, I wonder how often he can duplicate it.

This is from 2012 but he since has many more records.

https://bismarcktribune.com/outdoors...a4bcf887a.html

A Bismarck man has claimed his third national long-range shooting title.

Richard Schatz won the International Benchrest Association 600-yard championship last weekend in St. Louis.

Schatz, a retired diesel mechanic who began competitive shooting in 2011, topped a field of more than 80 shooters.

Schatz said he shoots a 6mm dasher round he designed with a custom-made rifle assembled by a friend who is a retired gunsmith.

He won two other national titles with the rifle in 600- and 1,000-yard classes and has set 10 world scoring records during competitive shooting.

Scores are calculated based on a five-shot grouping.

Schatz has been inducted into both the International Benchrest Shooters and the National Benchrest Shooters halls of fame.

Partial list of his accomplishments here http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...&submit=Search

[M-Tecs]

> As an aside from all this reloading minutia, any winning BR competitor can confirm that the shooter's ability to dope the wind becomes progressively more important as the ranges increase and the winning groups get smaller. Since wind is invisible, even with range flags, most screamer groups must involve a good bit of luck.

Wind is far from invisible. Reading mirage (particularly at longer ranges) is a better indicator than flags.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...with-diagrams/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ope-technique/

[jmorris]

The OP already stated on the first page he wasn’t even looking for sub MOA accuracy.

I am not looking for sub MOA from my guns, MOA is an achievable and a good goal for me. Sub moa is obtainable but no interest in going down that road right now. I reloaded some 308 on the Lee press that produce about 3" groups. Back to the RCBS and was down to moa. Working now on the Redding and I'm satisfied with the 223 that can punch a quarter sized hole at 100 yards all day.

Then again 1 MOA at 100 yards is 1.047” and a quarter is .955” in diameter. Guess that depends if he is talking about center to center or outside to outside...

Anyway, 100 yards is also an entirely different game than 1000 yard or even 600 yard benchrest. It’s not uncommon for aggregate groups to be in the .1’s-.3’s throughout the entire field in 100 yard benchrest matches and as the term aggregate would suggest, that’s the combination of a number of different groups.

That’s with thrown charges and often tiny aluminum presses that wouldn’t be suitable for more demanding strength.

Rabbit hole for what it seems the OP is looking for.

[1hole]

Richard Schatz won the International Benchrest Association 600-yard championship last weekend in St. Louis. ... Schatz said he shoots a 6mm dasher round he designed with a custom-made rifle assembled by a friend who is a retired gunsmith.

He won two other national titles with the rifle in 600- and 1,000-yard classes and has set 10 world scoring records during competitive shooting.

Schatz has been inducted into both the International Benchrest Shooters and the National Benchrest Shooters halls of fame.[/I]

Mr. Schatz is quite a shooter and obviously gets great performance from his tools and load development. ???

[1hole]

Wind is far from invisible. Reading mirage (particularly at longer ranges) is a better indicator that flags.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...with-diagrams/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ope-technique/

Interesting write ups but you seem to put more faith in "wind spotting" than it deserves. Fact is, the waves of heat generated mirage is sometimes visible but more often is not. Even when it is, mirage is not "wind", nor is what we see always indicative of the contrary hot spots at different points over the flat fields where they can best be seen. That means there is no way for a shooter to accurately distinguish the optical effects of mirage between varying points along the bullet's trajectory ... and that matters. Those are just facts, not web guru "I once saw it in an interesting gun magazine" guesses.

Truth is, wind is just moving air so it's obviously invisible. But, mirage is bent light making things appear to be in different places from where they really are; meaning mirage is not wind drift! Sure, with practice, reading those rising heat waves can be helpful when shooting over flat ground. But no matter how visible mirage may be on any given day and time and specific place, mirage itself is nothing but light rickoceting its way through changeable densities of heated air.

Therefore, while mirage reading (through high power scopes) can indeed be helpful to skilled shooters, the "wind" itself cannot be seen nor accurately determined by anyone watching swirling heat waves dancing around between themselves and distant targets.

Those are mirage facts, not web guru "I once read this great stuff in a gun magazine so now I know all about it" day dreams.

[1hole]

That’s with thrown charges and often tiny aluminum presses ...

If you mean the little RCBS Partner press, I have a young friend (mid 50s) who uses a .338 Win Mag for his southern white tail deer rifle. Says he wants to just to be sure that he has enough power to take the same deep woods deer I easily take with a .243 Win and .35 Rem. He reloads that hard kicking thing on a tiny little Partner!

[M-Tecs]

Interesting write ups but you seem to put more faith in "wind spotting" than it deserves. Fact is, the waves of heat generated mirage is sometimes visible but more often is not. Even when it is, mirage is not "wind", nor is what we see always indicative of the contrary hot spots at different points over the flat fields where they can best be seen. That means there is no way for a shooter to accurately distinguish the optical effects of mirage between varying points along the bullet's trajectory ... and that matters. Those are just facts, not web guru "I once saw it in an interesting gun magazine" guesses.

Truth is, wind is just moving air so it's obviously invisible. But, mirage is bent light making things appear to be in different places from where they really are; meaning mirage is not wind drift! Sure, with practice, reading those rising heat waves can be helpful when shooting over flat ground. But no matter how visible mirage may be on any given day and time and specific place, mirage itself is nothing but light rickoceting its way through changeable densities of heated air.

Therefore, while mirage reading (through high power scopes) can indeed be helpful to skilled shooters, the "wind" itself cannot be seen nor accurately determined by anyone watching swirling heat waves dancing around between themselves and distant targets.

Those are mirage facts, not web guru "I once read this great stuff in a gun magazine so now I know all about it" day dreams.

You obviously have zero competitive long range experience. I have 30 plus years and I do recommend you stop digging a hole.

With proper optics mirage is always visible. That does not mean mirage is always usable as a wind indicate. Straight boils can be from a straight on head or tail wind or no wind. Above 13 mph mirage turns to a flat run and the only real usable information is that the wind is greater than 13 mph. Between between 0 and 13 mph using mirage is the gold stand for read winding for long competition and military snipers. The short range bench shooter tend to use a lot of flags or spinners but that is not that is not my area of expertise so unlike some I will refrain from commenting.

https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/fi...ntrol-for-wind

https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...te-wind-speed/

http://www.mssblog.com/2017/03/01/sh...-the-breeze-3/

https://www.targettamers.com/guides/...potting-scope/

[1hole]

You obviously have zero competitive long range experience. I have 30 plus years and I do recommend you stop digging a hole.

Ah! My apologies, but you should have told us you're a long range expert from the git-go.

[M-Tecs]

If you mean the little RCBS Partner press

That's why serious BR shooters use hand dies and arbor presses; you can't get "sloppier" than that.

You ever been to an actual BR match?????? Lots of BR shooters load at the range with almost everything under the sun. Some use an arbor press and some use a variety of small little presses like the Harrell's or Hood. Some use threaded dies exclusively and some use a combination of threaded press and arbor press. Some even use Lyman 310 type tong tools and I am sure something like the Partner does see some use. The point is lots of serious shooters use something other that hand dies with an arbor.

http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/pr...eloading-press

http://www.benchrest.com/hoodpress/hood_press.html

https://buchananprecisionmachine.com...ress-with-case

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...enchrest-game/

[M-Tecs]

Ah! My apologies, but you should have told us you're a long range expert from the git-go.

Far from an expert but I do know enough (unlike some) to have an intelligent conversion on this subject.

[jmorris]

If you mean the little RCBS Partner press, I have a young friend (mid 50s) who uses a .338 Win Mag for his southern white tail deer rifle.

No, like these, couldn’t reload anything as long as the .338 mag on one and wouldn’t want to use the force on some that it would take to size a case back fired out of a factory rifle.

The rifles are built so tight, that case necks must be turned so the case and bullet can chamber and custom dies for the chamber also size them minimally.

For example, out of my .262nk 6mm PPC rifles I can load and fire the same case 3 times and not even have to size it, to load and fire it. Try that with your friends .338 and after the first shot the case is blown out so much the bullet will fall right to the bottom. Moving all that brass back where it belongs requires a lot more force than the things we are playing with.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im sure not a bench rest shooter but id bet my time working up loads off a bench is measured in years not days. Anyone who claims a guy cant make GOOD ammo on a progressive press is usually a guy who cant afford one or most likely doesnt shoot enough to justify one. PLEASE dont tell my ar15s ar10s and 223 varmint guns im cheating and theyve been overperforming for decades. Im surely not a long range competitive shooter and have never even been to a match but id dare wager ive shot more long range deer then anyone on here. Now im talking at a piddling 4-500 yards though not at a 1000. Many of those shot with ammo i loaded on my lnl's and 550. My point in all of this is most of us here are not competitive long range shooters and like anyone thats actually used a 550 will tell you. It will make ammo that is good enough for 99.9 percent of us.

[jmorris]

How about top score at US Palma Team trials loading with a 550?

https://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek059.html

[Lloyd Smale]

How about top score at US Palma Team trials loading with a 550?

https://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek059.html

Id about bet he won it because he had much more time to practice actual shooting then trying to buy an edge with high dollar tools. I load to shoot. Less time loading=more time shooting. More time shooting=me being a better shot. I think some do most of there shooting with a keyboard.