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Thread: A ?. “The load” and the Argentine 1891 Mauser.

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    A ?. “The load” and the Argentine 1891 Mauser.

    Hello,

    I am jonesing to shoot an Argentine 1891 Mauser again. Yes, w/ cast loads. Anyone have luck w/ the 314299?

    Also, in reading about “The load” it seems that this is not particularly healthy thing to use in the 1891. What powder have some of you used w/ success in the 1891? I am partial to IMR4227.

    What say you?

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy Kegcaissy's Avatar
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    HI!

    Half of your answer here:314299 (316299 in my case) does very well in this caliber. !6gr of 2400 is the trick.

    I don't know about how healty it would be in a 91 as i use a peruvian 1909 (98 action, same rifle as a GEW98 but in 7,65x53) to fire these loads.
    We really need a Ar-15 subforum!

  3. #3
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    Look in the stickies above in the thread about loading for military rifles.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    My best results were with 12.5 of Red Dot with cast bullets.

  5. #5
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    M1fuzz

    "Anyone have luck w/ the 314299?"

    Yes, that is an excellent cast bullet in the 7.65 Argentine as is the Lee C312-185-!R and several other .31 cal cast bullets.

    Also, in reading about “The load” it seems that this is not particularly healthy thing to use in the 1891.

    That sounds like an internet; "rumor control this secret myth 2, over...." conversation......

    "What powder have some of you used w/ success in the 1891? I am partial to IMR4227."

    With the 314299 I prefer 4895 with a dacron filler.
    Larry Gibson

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  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy Argentino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1fuzz View Post
    Hello,

    I am jonesing to shoot an Argentine 1891 Mauser again. Yes, w/ cast loads. Anyone have luck w/ the 314299?

    Also, in reading about “The load” it seems that this is not particularly healthy thing to use in the 1891. What powder have some of you used w/ success in the 1891? I am partial to IMR4227.

    What say you?
    I´ve used very light loads of ww231, Bullseye, Unique and a few others in my 1891 Argies, starting around 5 grains and up to 7 grains and always adding some filler (kapok mostly).
    The 1891 action is not as strong as the 1909 action, and the gas shield on the bolt is smaller, but other than that I´ve never heard of these loads being unhealthy for these Mausers. I would like to know if there is some concern about them.
    "Skill is acquired not alone through practice but through the combination of study and experience" - P. Sharpe

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    I run cast loads in mine. And full house power loads. With in data. Them mausers are built like a tank.
    One round at a time.
    Member of the NRA,GOA and FAOC. Gun clubs Zerby rod and gun club. Keystone Fish and Game Association.

  8. #8
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    I use 17 grains of 2400 with 314299 tumble lubed.

  9. #9
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    My only experience with the strength of a 1891 Mauser is that a dear late friend had a “custom” 91 in 22-250. It had been converted to single shot with a welded in steel feed tray and a grafted solid bottom on the sporter stock. The cocking piece was trimmed( for less lock time?), it had a great trigger and a Sako heavy barrel. It shot right along side my Remingtons and friends Rugers and Savages with no evidence of lug set back for many prairie dog and target sessions. I was impressed; but I would still keep the loads in any other 91 to the recommended levels for that action.
    Last edited by Texas by God; 08-13-2020 at 12:55 PM.

  10. #10
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    "I would still keep the loads in any other 91 to the recommended levels for that action."

    I've done a lot of pressure testing using a M91 Argentine Mauser with barrel shortened to 24". For the 7.65 x53 Argentine Europe's CIP shows a MAP of 56,500 psi. There is no established SAAMI MAP for this cartridge. Many times we hear; "the action was designed only for 45,000 psi".... but was it? Or was that just what the cartridge with the powders available in the late 1800s were capable of safely? BTW; 45,000 psi derived from C.U.P. methods is very close to the 56, 500 psi derived from peizo-transducer methods for the C.I.P. PMAP.

    As I have pressure tested;

    Hornady Custom factory with Hornady 150 gr .312 SP; 2809 fps with 56,300 psi

    Belgian 7.65 milsurp/FN39 160 gr FMJBT; 2574 fps with 56,000 psi

    Belgian 7.65 milsurp/FN35 154 gr FMJBT; 2606 fps with 52,700 psi

    Norma 7.65 Argentine with 150 jacketed SP (original load no longer loaded); 2943 fps with 66,900 psi....yes that is correct......

    Argentine 7.65 milsurp FMMAP47 185 gr FMJBT; 2448 fps with 54,800 psi
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 08-14-2020 at 11:32 AM.
    Larry Gibson

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  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Excellent info. Thanks to all. I should have known about the internet BS.

  12. #12
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    ..............Here's some 'Fun' loads. Rifle was a (no longer have it) '91 Argentine 7.65x54. Made by DWM ser #T2850, .302" bore / .311" groove / 9.8" RH concentric rifling.

    Boolit: Lee C309113 FNGC, cast 1 ww, 1 Lino ( harder then need be, but ww's were free/cheap.)
    Sized: .312" Hornady GC
    Powder: Win 231
    Charge: 8.0 grs.
    Primer: WLR
    OAL: 2.60"
    No crimp
    No filler
    Fired 2-95 about 65 deg.

    Boolits not weighed. Avg vel: 1933 fps, ES: 34.2, SD: 13.2
    High - Low for 5 rnds, 1985 - 1920

    Off the bench at 50 yards 5 rounds created a really nice circular group of 1 - 1.25". This was a fabulous shooting rifle and this load was a lot of fun to shoot. practically no recoil and the loudest noise was the bullets' crack which wasn't bad. We lived in a fairly narrow canyon at the time, and we had horses. Well, wife and daughter had a horse, I had a mule. In any event I liked this so much that I used it to shoot ground squirrels around the place instead of the 22RF. Didn't give the neighbors any gas, and didn't disturb the animals. Maybe just me, but it was iron sighted and just seemed to be more fun then the 22.



    .....................Buckshot

    PS: Another good slug for cheap shooting would be the Lyman 311410. It's a PB so you have to watch your velocities. They generally drop around .312 - .313".
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  13. #13
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    There’s a neatly cut down 91 for $300 at the LGS. I sure like it......

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

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    My Argie was a gift from a dear friend whose brother in law was the original owner as a surplus gun in the 1950s. The bore is pristine and reportedly only had 20 or 40 rounds through it. It was his BILs deer rifle and only got fired to check zero and the occasional shots on game. I had always wanted a surplus gun just for cast boolits and look forward to working up loads for the rifle.

    The action is so smooth, bolt was turned down and barrel was one of the 24" variety carbines. The numbers all match and production was from the original run/purchase order. There is some wear on the stock and some patina on the barrel near the muzzle. I have yet to purchase dies but do have a suitable mold albeit only 155 grains. I may just shoot it for killing tin cans as I don't really hunt anymore.

    I picked up a few .308 rifles to give my wife a variety of choices, an M1A, Sig Saur 716 Patrol Rifle (AR 10), and a Mossberg Scout Rifle. I have worked up cast boolit loads for each of the three and found a sweet spot at around 2450 fps with an NOE C309-150 3R SP which I powder coat. Those rifles are a great deal of fun to shoot, but I think the Argie may become my favorite cast boolit shooter. So many great loads to try!
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  15. #15
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    I have one of these ol Timers that I really want to shoot. Im not "afraid" just Need/want to be respectful. Its built in Norwich CT and has the shrouded barrel.

    I have gone theu and everything looks good. Outside wasn't well cared for but the bore is bright and sharp and wasn't fired much. If is saw use it was well cleaned inside.

    I have a number of appropriate molds including the 314299.

    1889 and 1891 where desiganations IIRC. (Correct me please)

    CW
    NRA Life member • REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.
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  16. #16
    Boolit Master nueces5's Avatar
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    Hello, my gun is a 1909, which is less accurate than yours.
    I have not achieved very good precision with 2400, I have developed a load with 27 grains of A27, which is an Argentine powder very similar to 3031 (I did not say the same, only similar) that has given me very good precision, using that mold, at 1900 FPS.
    The next load in precision was 42.5 grains of Win 760. A little less precise, but much faster, around 2300 Fps.
    All with CCI 200. I don't remember the OAL, but it was the longest he can do, leaving the GC below the neck.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwlongshot View Post
    I have one of these ol Timers that I really want to shoot. Im not "afraid" just Need/want to be respectful. Its built in Norwich CT and has the shrouded barrel.

    I have gone theu and everything looks good. Outside wasn't well cared for but the bore is bright and sharp and wasn't fired much. If is saw use it was well cleaned inside.

    I have a number of appropriate molds including the 314299.

    1889 and 1891 where desiganations IIRC. (Correct me please)

    CW
    That's an 1889 Mauser built by Hopkins & Allen under contract for Belgium. I'd shoot it all day with mild cast loads- were it mine.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by fcvan View Post
    My Argie was a gift from a dear friend whose brother in law was the original owner as a surplus gun in the 1950s. The bore is pristine and reportedly only had 20 or 40 rounds through it. It was his BILs deer rifle and only got fired to check zero and the occasional shots on game. I had always wanted a surplus gun just for cast boolits and look forward to working up loads for the rifle.

    The action is so smooth, bolt was turned down and barrel was one of the 24" variety carbines. The numbers all match and production was from the original run/purchase order. There is some wear on the stock and some patina on the barrel near the muzzle. I have yet to purchase dies but do have a suitable mold albeit only 155 grains. I may just shoot it for killing tin cans as I don't really hunt anymore.

    I picked up a few .308 rifles to give my wife a variety of choices, an M1A, Sig Saur 716 Patrol Rifle (AR 10), and a Mossberg Scout Rifle. I have worked up cast boolit loads for each of the three and found a sweet spot at around 2450 fps with an NOE C309-150 3R SP which I powder coat. Those rifles are a great deal of fun to shoot, but I think the Argie may become my favorite cast boolit shooter. So many great loads to try!
    I just so happen to have a set of dies that I won't be using anymore , they are yours if you like + brass and Hornady .312 bullets , send me a pm .
    The rifle is in the process of becoming a different caliber .

  19. #19
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    I have had five 1909 Argentine Mausers. They are now , a 30/06, a 35 Whelen, a 280 Rem, a2(7 Roberts and a 7.65 Argentine.

    They are a favorite!!

    I never had the earlier version!

    Yes its labeled Hopkins and Allen. (About 35 miles from where I sit as I write this!)

    Are ta saying they are good solid guns?

    CW
    NRA Life member • REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.
    Come visit my RUMBLE & uTube page's !!

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  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    [QUOTE CW [/QUOTE] How cool is that! Although I only have the one, built in Germany during the first production run for the Argentinian contract, I was told it was unfired when bought as a surplus sale. But to have one (or more?) made right near you, very cool! I look forward to shooting mine, it is so smooth.
    Common sense Gun Safety . . .

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check