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Thread: information and where to find

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master

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    information and where to find

    I have a new shop to play in and am thinking about 3 percussion muzzle loaders( actualy 4 one for the gentleman I hope to have stock them). My grabdsins are 7, 6, and 2 hes a little young yet bt will grow into it. All are smaller structured so weight and length are an issue for now

    What I have in mind is a scaled down Hawken style rifle in 32 or 36 caliber. Maybe use the smaller pistol lock and trigger group would like double set triggers also. Im thinking siler right now.

    I an planning on tapered octagon barrels I will contour remember new shop LOL and fit breech plugs. Would also like the "covered / shielded" nipples. Am thinking a 24" barrel length for these boys rifles. For the friends I may go to a 40 cal blank and 32: length so he can build a nice Ohio deer rifle for himself. Would like a patched round ball twist. I will make the accouterments horn, patch knife, short starter, thimbles and such.

    Now for the requested help what barrel makers, what twist, ( i dont want bargain basement but considering this is a 4 rifle build cost will be an issue. Locks and trigger options.

    Barrel contour Im thinking from breech forward, 3" - 4" straight section then .005 per inch to muzzle Should make a nice easy to carry rifle the boys can use. Should hold well also. Since Im doing the contouring I can leave the rear and front sight bases as part of the barrel too. I am leaning toward 36 caliber as finding needed things will be easier here. ( I may do 2 40s and 1 for Son in law also).

    Any and all help will be appreciated, Thank you in advance for any and all information

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    rancher1913's Avatar
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    maybe buy a first gun that is expendable and cheap to get them going and then build a custom for them when they can handle a full size one that they can use and cherish the rest of their lives. grandfather always gave me cheap guns to use while growing up and learning and later gave me the better ones once I learned to take care of things.
    if you are ever being chased by a taxidermist, don't play dead

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
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    I like Green Mountain.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master arcticap's Avatar
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    I bought a Traditions Fox River .50 youth sidelock model for my son from the Sportman's Guide when he was about 8 or 9 which started him into muzzle loading.
    It was a perfect fit with a short stock and single trigger.
    25 grains of Pyrodex P to hit steel targets at 25 yards.
    And 30 grains to hit targets at 40 yards.
    And 40 grains to hit targets at 50 yards, always under watchful supervision.
    The felt recoil is nearly non-existent.
    I would recommend a .45 or .50 because the barrels are lighter, which makes it easier for kids to hold them for offhand shooting.
    Kids love shooting at steel targets because they like to hear the ding, and the .50 makes larger holes in paper targets.
    The boom of the .50 sounds more like a real gun but without the recoil.
    IMO there's really no need for double triggers and premium barrels.
    The smaller caliber balls are harder to handle and not as easy to ram down a narrow bore.
    Put a handle on a wooden dowel that's close to bore size to make for a stout range rod for kids to ram themselves.
    The closest to it now is a special edition kid's model for YEC competition.
    It has a 1 in 48" twist barrel for shooting round ball, except that it takes 209 shotgun primers.
    It has a traditional twist that's built with an inline action for youth shooting programs, and it has a 13" length of pull.
    The only question is whether the MuzzleLoader Shop LTD. has any in stock.
    It was a special run of guns that was made especially for them.
    You only need one for the older boys to try out since they can share it until you decide whether to buy another.
    Another nice feature about the .50 is that they can be used for deer hunting when the kids are ready.
    No other shop has them. --->>> https://www.muzzleloadershop.com
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Definitely green mountain for the barrels. I'm thinking probably 13/16 across the flats to keep the weight down, Davis set triggers with l&r manton locks or maybe a small siler

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I like green mountain barrels also but on their site right now they are way behind on production due to pandemic. I also didnt see any 36 cal blanks. Part of my reasoning for the 36 cal is 1) less lead and powder per shot. 2) a lighter more svelte rifle can be built. 3) with their small hands the thinner wrists and fore ends will also be a plus. As an aside Squirrel and small game hunting will likely be the starting point for them after learning to shoot. Deer hunting will come later on. I can cast up a bunch of pure lead balls and they are good to go.

    These will be more of my legacy to them made by me for them. WIth my MS and other issues I want to get them going so if things go south they are there

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Try Tip Curtis frontier shop in cross plains Tn he's got all kinds of gm barrels and if he doesn't then try log cabin shop in Lodi Oh. Tip use to have stuff gm hadn't made in years.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master bedbugbilly's Avatar
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    I'm thinking that if you are going to use a GM barrel - and I agree that a 13/16" in 36 cal is a good choice - you'd best start seeing if you can locate one. There may be some suppliers out there that will have what you need in stock but when I was looking for a barrel not long ago, supplies seem to be pretty thin. Add on the Covid thing and it may be a while before any are made. A year ago, I ws looking for a particular barrel and looked on GMs site - seemed to me that they were concentrating on more cartridge barrels than ML barrels - they had a few in stock but not many. I asked about having a barrel made up - what I wanted was a heavier barrel in 42" for a chunk gun build. They said they cold make it - but - minimum order was 300. Understandable so Looked elsewhere and finally found a barrel that a guy had bought a number of years ago but never used in a build. Just think of the capital outlay if a dealer wants to put in a stock of different sized / caliber barrels even if a number of dealers went in on a group buy and split the quantities up.

    I fully understand you wanting to do a taper barrel and the builds - it would be something they would treasures for the rest of their lives. For a boy''s half-stock - what you are wanting to build is pretty much like the old CVA .32 "Squirrel Rifle". I had one for a number of years and it was a fun size rifle even for an adult. Those rifles utilized a 3/4" straight octagon barrel in .32 caliber. Personally, I have always liked my .36 and .40 caliber rifles - good for plinking/target as well as small game whether it be squirrels or rabbits. With a tapered .36 caliber barrel, it should give good balance and work well for a young fella to carry in the field.

    Another thing you need to look at is the furniture you are going to use. I'm assuming that if you are making a scaled down Hawken that you would be using steel furniture but brass would be just fine as well - you are designing the rifle so you have the latitude to do what you fine attractive. I would think the buttplate would be the easiest to "scale down" as there are so many options out there that you could shorten the top tang and shorten/reshape the buttplate. The trigger guard is going to have to fit your set triggers but a full size trigger-guard (Hawken) is not going to be proportional to the scaled down rifle. You sound like you have the skills and equipment though so while making a scaled down Hawken style trigger guard is going to be time consuming - it's not impossible.

    I used to go to Friendship for the spring and fall shoots and eery time (year ago) it was to complete without stopping by and seeing Myron Carlson and his wife at their booth. Unfortunately, Myron passed away but he was truly a very fine gentleman who love to share his knowledge. His speciality was hand forging steel furniture - his true love were Beran Rifles. He made quite a few of them and forged all the furniture. I bought a set of hand forged furniture for a Virginia style flintlock rifle - built the rifle and put it o display on my table at a gun/living history show and like a fool, couldn't turn down a very generous offer on it so zi sold it. I wished I had kept it. Anyway . . . one of the last years I saw Myron, he went back into his booth and pulled out a rifle that he wanted to show me that he had built the previous winter. It was a scaled down "Boy's Bean Rifle" - stocked in curly cherry - it was amazing! H had forged the scaled down furniture and had come up with an old cartridge barrel that he reworked - transformed it into an octagon barrel, reamed and re-rifled the bore. All I could think when I looked at Myron's boy's rifle was how much a young boy would treasure it and have fun with it - and what a treasure to hand down.

    Good luck in your builds - they'll be a labor of love and "family heirlooms".

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rancher1913 View Post
    maybe buy a first gun that is expendable and cheap to get them going and then build a custom for them when they can handle a full size one that they can use and cherish the rest of their lives. grandfather always gave me cheap guns to use while growing up and learning and later gave me the better ones once I learned to take care of things.
    I agree with this.

    Even with a tapered barrel, a Hawken is going to be a heavy ol' pig for a kid to shoot.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I once built a Kid Size ML for a guy for his two Grandsons.
    I just took a used Traditions Hawkins Kit that he bought.
    I cut the barrel down , slimmed down the stock and modified all the parts to fit.
    I also Hand filed the flats on half of the barrel towards the front half of the barrel to make a Semi octagon to round barrel.
    Lucky for him.
    His one grandson was into shooting.
    The other had no interest, cause he was into Computers.
    So don't assume that they will enjoy the hobby like you do.
    But it was great to at least introduce them to things that they may enjoy later in their life.
    IMO.
    Keep your first build on the CHEAP.
    Then if possible , build the next one WITH them

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    You are probably better of buying a kit or used ML and do it up the way you want by modifying it. Most 32's because of the small size have a 1-48 twist for a roundball barrel and that works just fine. The little cup thing you want, I tried it and didn't like it. It does help protect the wood but also makes it a pain to clean the gun in that area. Also tend to blow back crud in your face. The Crockett I believe made for Traditions might be something for you to look at. Also keep in mind, I think it's neat what you are doing but your grandkids will probably outgrow these guns very quickly.
    Aim small, miss small!

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master

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    They probably will but with any luck they will be passed in to their children also. and so on. leaving a story and my remembrance.

    My old renegades stock wears a lot if dings from being used, Little Jack and Avery was looking at it and asking questions. they got to all the dings and scratches I looked at them and told them thats where grandpa fought of the Indians when he ran out of powder. LOL Both there eyes got wide. I just couldnt resist it. Jack has a 22 favorite I bought him Avery has a 22 Remington rolling block. I haven't found Elijah's 22 yet. But am looking.

    When I took down the old garage, we graded up to original floor and I mounded up a small mound at the edge of the old floor. Told them I found a garage seed at the hardware store and was growing a new garage, When we set the posts for the new building it did resemble stalks growing.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master arcticap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Hawkeye View Post
    Try Tip Curtis frontier shop in cross plains Tn he's got all kinds of gm barrels and if he doesn't then try log cabin shop in Lodi Oh. Tip use to have stuff gm hadn't made in years.
    Someone posted on July 1, 2020 that Tip Curtis passed away.
    His website still works.
    Here's the thread that posted the announcement. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...curtis.871003/

  14. #14
    Boolit Master arcticap's Avatar
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    The Gun Works was making barrels under the Oregon Barrel Company name.
    Not sure if the deceased owner's wife is still running that part of the business but it may be worth a try.
    They're fairly well regarded for outstanding customer service.
    Here's a thread with some barrel info. --->>> https://americanlongrifles.org/forum...?topic=44441.0
    Here'e the website for The Gun Works. --->>> http://www.thegunworks.com
    Last edited by arcticap; 08-13-2020 at 04:08 PM.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Sounds like a great project. Best of luck with it!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    WOW, I didn't know about TIP he was a class act and will be missed and I'm glad to hear his son is keeping the shop open.Tip was a great teacher when it came to building a rifle. I met him at dixions gunmakers fair in 2005 and got my flintlock from him. He used to build rifles in the white so all you had to do was the final finishing which was wonderful if you were nervous about doing the wood fitting of the parts.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check