Are you ready for the Rapture?

[Nines&Twos]

Uh oh. Went to my semi-annual check up yesterday.
Blood pressure is great, cholesterol is great...
Might live longer than I thought.

You know Rfeustel, there are so many wonderfully amazing aspects and happenings in this reality that others call a religion, so much we can discuss and enjoy without butting heads over where in the chain of events we'll see Jesus face to face. Yeah, we shouldn't concentrate on something that's so custom made to order for driving a wedge. But, that's my opinion and that said, I'm bowing out of this thread because obviously it was started with pretrib rapture acceptance as baseline.

[sarcasm] You mean you don't wanna fly away?...even though no one's actually flying anywhere[/sarcasm]

Yeshua comes one time. ONE time. When his feet hit the mount of olives all who are here will be changed into our celestial bodies in the twinkling of an eye and the 1K yr reign begins.
I can't understand why anyone wants to fly away knowing when the 7th trump sounds...that's the farthest one out, we can all count....Christ comes HERE. Not here, then, there and back again (that's a hobbits tale) HERE. People can fly away with the 1st messiah if they chose to and many will for many will be deceived...but as for me...I'm here waiting and working in the field NOT to be the 1st taken by the spurious messiah.
I feel sorry for those deceived...so desperate to escape that they would believe a lie...with a bit of help from our Father who will help you believe a lie if one chooses (2Thess2:11)

This won't win me any friends but its an honest question...is it fear? Does the little pissant false messiah frighten people SO bad that instead of making a stand as one of Father's elect, they'd desire to run from the enemy? Pfft!!! Satan can do as he pleases...if he wants my head....Molon Labe...The 1st prophecy of the Word SHALL come to pass...half of it already has....Lucifer will bruise HIS heels but HE will bruise his head ...His heels were bruised when they were nailed to the cross....Who wants to share some popcorn and watch the show when The Master bruises his head?

As my earthly teacher loved to say...Just winnin' friends and influencing people here.

[Bowdrie]

I've sometimes found that when going over Scripture that one kind of has to become like Chief Inspector Clouseau. LOL.
In other words, when you are trying to conflate/compare different verses to examine the Who/What/Where/When/Why.
God's plan thru the Bible covers two courses, the first course is Believer vs Unbeliever, the second is Jew vs Gentile.
Much of the Bible is written to Jewish people, (God's plan for them,) and some is written for the Gentiles, and some is written for both.
The apostle Paul wrote much about how gentiles were to be included just as much as Jews when they became believers.
So as we move into the "Church Age" in Acts there takes a turn where the Jews have to accept the gentile believers as being "spiritually circumcised" just as the Jewish believers and become "one and all" of the same spirit.
When Jesus was speaking in Matthew 24 He was speaking to Jews, they asked Him what would be the signs of His return.
They were not asking about a "Rapture", they were asking about the signs of His "return", ie., His physical return to earth, and He told them what would take place before He did return, not about a "Rapture" event.
If taken to the extreme of being "literal" one could say that the "Falling Away" started with Adam/Eve, most assuredly the whole world had "fallen away" when God closed the door of the Ark.
In Ezekial God said that when Israel was re-born as a nation that they would worship Him, and they did, (for a while,) now Israel is almost completely secular.
The entire 7 years of Tribulation is "God's Wrath". In 1st Thessalonians Paul says that "Us" are NOT appointed unto wrath.
Who is the "Us"? It's the "Church" the body of believers.
The pictures that Paul shows in 1st. Thessalonians and 2nd, Thessalonians are not depicting the same thing.
A Who/What/Where/When/Why chart will show that, and even the description of the signs in the heavens/sky makes it pretty clear.
The Rapture "Comes as a thief in the night", in the "coming to earth" the whole sky blows up, (so to speak,) and the whole world mourns at seeing the Lord return.
In 1st, Thessalonians Paul is writing about the Rapture.
In 2nd. Thessalonians Paul is writing about the physical return of Jesus to earth.

[Bowdrie]

We can find several symbolic passages in Scripture about a "Rapture event", here are a couple of them;
Rahab got out of Jericho before the destruction and escaped being killed and 7 years of war by having "Faith".
The parable of the prodigal son, the son left the "world of sin", the Father ran to greet him.
They met in the middle, the Father didn't enter the sinful world, but met his son and took him "home".
Jesus said "You believe because you have seen, blessed are those who believe without seeing".
We haven't seen the Rapture or Jesus yet, but we believe by "faith".
After the Rapture many will believe, they will be "saved", (and give their lives for their belief,) but they do not receive the "blessings" that we who believe by Faith will receive.

[Bowdrie]

One can come to their own conclusions about numbers/percentages of those who believe in the Rapture. I think that a few believe in a post-trib, many believe in a mid-trib, and most believe in a pre-trib.
Those who believe in "no rapture" are the ones that really are out in left field.
That completely negates what Paul wrote.
It's spread all over that some Anglican Priest named John Darby "invented" the rapture, nothing could be farther from the truth.
He did a similar thing to what Martin Luther had done almost 400 years before. He stood-up to the false teachings of the so-called "church" and called them out on their failure to recognize what I tried to say a couple of posts back; That from Isaiah 32, That Israel and the Church were distinct, that God "had a separate plan" for Israel vs Church, a different Dispensation if you will.
I've a friend who subscribes to the "no rapture" school of thought, asking him about Christians going thru the Tribulation. His answer is; "Well, all the Christians got to get together and have food/water/medicine stored-up so they don't have to take the mark to buy or sell, and if they have "Faith" they'll be able to hang on till the end when Jesus will come back to save them",,,, and so on and so forth.
He clearly doesn't have a clue. Will you watch all the older Christians die from no medicine/doctors? Will you watch your babies/children die from starvation?
He has no idea that 1/2 of the entire population left on this earth will die during that 7 years.
The life expectancy of a Christian during that time is almost zero. Christians will all end-up like Anne Frank, they'll be reported to the anti-christ authorities in exchange for some clean water or a 1/2lb of hamburger.
If you told someone who you were trying to lead to Christ that they would have to go thru that for 7 years they'd tell you they wouldn't want any part of Christianity.

[.429&H110]

I believe in the rapture, but not the world's arguments or explanations...
Been through Revelation in Sunday school four (4) times in two churches
Excellent teachers, deacons, went through word by word, Greek and all
Compare Revelation 1 the description of Christ with the armor of God, Ephesian 6
Beautiful!
Ever notice that Revelation is written in the present tense?
Like it was written as it happened?
When Christ came to rapture John?
Like He did Enoch and Elijah?
I believe I am a Preterist, that God kept his Promise to John.
And I believe God will keep His promise to me.

I will warn that the world is using fear to persuade, fear of dying,
fear of the unknown, fear of God's Judgement, fear of a Second Coming.
Certainly does sell books, keeps utube busy.
But fear keeps people out of church, fear of rejection.
Won't work, people won't stay scared, they get angry.
And yah, they are angry...

If we vote down the anti-christ(s) they are powerless
If we us all of us stand up to the heathen, we win every time.
Christ gave us the Great Commission for this purpose.
Do It. Or die trying, Christ gave us that option, too.

The nattering acolytes of scientism believe in their creation
and they believe that someday the proton will decay, or gravity will make a big crunch
the difference between a young and old earther is funding
I do not need a telescope to see the sky.

What did Jesus say in Matthew 24 and at the end of John?

John 21
...Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 19This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Jesus and the Beloved Apostle

20Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? 21Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

24This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Yup, I'm a Preterist.
Not a Johnian or Paulian or Danielian but a Gospel Christian.
Glad He didn't leave me as He found me.

[Bowdrie]

Yup, I'm a Preterist.

So, you believe that the prophecies in Daniel were all fulfilled by the first century AD, and that Israel found the end of its fulfillment as a "Christian" church when it was destroyed in 70AD?
Ah, it's sad for the Jesuits that started that whole concept and the misguided Protestants who accepted it, trying their best to mold Catholicism and Protestantism into a happy family.
For the Catholics it was a good way to eliminate any thoughts or hope for a better future, thereby keeping their "flock" to the grindstone of "pray and pay" or God will throw you away.
For the Protestants who went along it had a similar appeal, "All that stuff in the NT is old-hat, WE will tell you what to believe",, after all, WE are the "educated ones".
Mores the pity.

[Thundarstick]

Preterist is about as close as I could come to describe my beliefs. I get a chuckle reading all the "rapture" theorists mumblings. It's well-known there where no repture teachings in the early church, and none until Darby's influence followed by Schofield latching onto it and publishing his reference Bible. Rapture theology, with the condoning of the state Israel paving the way for Christ return,is an almost wholly American based belief.

[Nines&Twos]

Don't leave out Margret Macdonald...the great dreamer...

[Thundarstick]

Don't leave out Margret Macdonald...the great dreamer...

Didn't remember her name at the time.

[Good Cheer]

Considering the extent of the desired depopulation indicated in the public statements and published writings of our betters, well, perhaps it won't quite be the means envisioned by many but to all appearances lots of us are going to be with Jesus in this run up to the third day before He sets foot upon the mount.

I'm not persuaded with the arguments either way though I've paid attention to both sides.
I recognize the fallacious interpretations of scripture and just have to shake my head that people willingly fall to it because it supports their preferred scenario. And it makes me think there's something we're all missing because there has never been a preacher / teacher that I didn't have at least some controversy with.

[.429&H110]

My idea is about the time Paul was writing Thessalonians
Our Savior was bringing John home
Must have been something amazing to see.
Too bad Enoch didn't write his account too. Oh, wait, he did.

The Holy Spirit compelled everybody to write all this down.

As a Bible literalist, to me this is a history written by God.
The Prophesy part is God's Promises.
America has forgotten our promise to God.

I have a crew of tinfoil hats in the family,
and it's either the second coming of Trump or Jesus,
told them to go read their Bible this time.

[Nines&Twos]

I'm not persuaded with the arguments either way though I've paid attention to both sides.
I recognize the fallacious interpretations of scripture and just have to shake my head that people willingly fall to it because it supports their preferred scenario. And it makes me think there's something we're all missing because there has never been a preacher / teacher that I didn't have at least some controversy with.

Setting aside ALL differences...THIS is why anyone who is serious about understanding our Father's Word MUST have a Strong's concordance at minimum and a Green's Interlinear is really nice as well. I like Moffat's translation too but E.W. Bullinger's Companion bible is my current study bible. Having only one translation .....and one of the newer translations especially.... is a pretty bad idea. Don't get me wrong...I'd heap rather have a person content with their NIV and never getting any deeper... than some creep reading anton lavey's filth....but this IS the 'Deep Theological Discussion' sub-forum and how deep can you get on only one translation? Father preserves his word and if you seek Him and His wisdom...he WILL show you what He wants you to know. ....maybe not what you want to know...but what HE wants you to know so he can put you to use. ....that's my 2¢ and with current inflation thats worth....yeah.

[Good Cheer]

Setting aside ALL differences...THIS is why anyone who is serious about understanding our Father's Word MUST have a Strong's concordance at minimum and a Green's Interlinear is really nice as well. I like Moffat's translation too but E.W. Bullinger's Companion bible is my current study bible. Having only one translation .....and one of the newer translations especially.... is a pretty bad idea. Don't get me wrong...I'd heap rather have a person content with their NIV and never getting any deeper... than some creep reading anton lavey's filth....but this IS the 'Deep Theological Discussion' sub-forum and how deep can you get on only one translation? Father preserves his word and if you seek Him and His wisdom...he WILL show you what He wants you to know. ....maybe not what you want to know...but what HE wants you to know so he can put you to use. ....that's my 2¢ and with current inflation thats worth....yeah.

[Bowdrie]

Having several Bibles of various translative efforts is all well and good.
I'm quite sure that people in many repressive areas of the world feel fortunate if they can have, (and perhaps have to keep hidden,) one or two of the Gospels, yet they believe in the Lord with all their heart.
I believe we have a "finished work", and John warns us against either adding-to or taking away.
Whether one wishes to include the Apocrypha could be argued without gain.
That said, one can only imagine the scrolls of "first person" accounts written during the span of perhaps 200BC to 200AD, more specifically during the years of our Lords "life and times".
The library at Alexandria most certainly contained some treasures that are only imaginable.
What might be hidden away in the bowels of the Vatican?
Let us give Praise to the Lord that much of what we discuss, (or viewpoints taken,) are not "mission critical" to the main objective; To spread the Gospel of Salvation.

[Nines&Twos]

NICE Good Cheer! Some day I'd like a 'good' printing of the original 1611. Not that I would ever read much of it...confusing as Olde English is...but the translators and scholars who compiled what we know as 'The Bible' wrote a letter and attached it warning against translation and interpretation errors, fully admitting their work was not without flaws. One fine example can be found in Luke 14:26. Its a sad person indeed that really believes Christ would tell anyone they must hate their family. The Greek word used in this instance actually translates to 'Love Less' and that is exactly as it should be...you must love your family less than Christ if you are to be a true follower. I think Jesus Christ was/is rather put out by the idea someone would imply He means for you to hate your family. Several more instances occur and even MORE when you get out of KJV translations and get into more modern translations.

[Good Cheer]

NICE Good Cheer! Some day I'd like a 'good' printing of the original 1611. Not that I would ever read much of it...confusing as Olde English is...but the translators and scholars who compiled what we know as 'The Bible' wrote a letter and attached it warning against translation and interpretation errors, fully admitting their work was not without flaws. One fine example can be found in Luke 14:26. Its a sad person indeed that really believes Christ would tell anyone they must hate their family. The Greek word used in this instance actually translates to 'Love Less' and that is exactly as it should be...you must love your family less than Christ if you are to be a true follower. I think Jesus Christ was/is rather put out by the idea someone would imply He means for you to hate your family. Several more instances occur and even MORE when you get out of KJV translations and get into more modern translations.

The Strong's, the Companion and the Interlinear are some power packed study tools.
Once the computers came along to let us do searches and compile searchable lists they complement our studies but the best computers are still between our ears and the very best study tools are still ink on paper.

Hey, by the way, yesterday we traveled a couple of hours to the christening of a new member of the family and were treated to a pastor's presentation on the four different words for the four different kinds of love featured in scripture. It's a fun example of translations.

[Alabama358]

This is the kind of garbage people pushing a false (John Nelson Darby) doctrine spew.

Bowdie... Please explain which parts of the New Testament is written mostly to the Jews? The 4 Gospels? Acts? Romans? I could go on listing the books but that would be kind of silly. one might be able to say the book of Hebrews was written to the Jews but then a person would have to read it to find out that its purpose is to say that there is no separate program for the Jews.

Much of the Bible is written to Jewish people, (God's plan for them,) and some is written for the Gentiles, and some is written for both.

Why is it some folks would have you believe that most of the Bible is written to "the Jews"

It is possible that from this construct they have created a platform to rebuke someone making any of the multitudes of scripture references that totally crush the John Nelson Darby false teachings, by simply saying "that part is written to the Jews"

But What does the actual Scripture say about the Jew and the gentile... For the sake of space I will only list a few below

Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

1Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

When Jesus was speaking in Matthew 24 He was speaking to Jews, they asked Him what would be the signs of His return.
They were not asking about a "Rapture", they were asking about the signs of His "return", ie., His physical return to earth, and He told them what would take place before He did return, not about a "Rapture" event.

Who are the "They" that ask him??? not some random Jews, it was only his apostles

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So you think that the Apostles, The born again followers of Christ... Those who were at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended etc. are considered "the Jews" and not" the church."
Or you believe that they are the members of the Bride of Christ and went to him as "the Body of Christ" "The Church" and said Lord gives us the playbook of the end times? So the Lord gave them his teaching in Matthew 24 but forgot to say "oh by the way....forget all that I just said because that is for "the Jews" there is a different program for ya'll.

The entire 7 years of Tribulation is "God's Wrath". In 1st Thessalonians Paul says that "Us" are NOT appointed unto wrath.

Hogwash....Supply one solid chapter & verse (from the Bible) that says the whole 7 year period is "Gods Wrath" there isn't one, that again is just more Darby Dung!
According to scripture the actual sequence of events goes Tribulation - Great Tribulation - Gods wrath

A Who/What/Where/When/Why chart will show that, and even the description of the signs in the heavens/sky makes it pretty clear.
The Rapture "Comes as a thief in the night", in the "coming to earth" the whole sky blows up, (so to speak,) and the whole world mourns at seeing the Lord return.
In 1st, Thessalonians Paul is writing about the Rapture. (see below)
In 2nd. Thessalonians Paul is writing about the physical return of Jesus to earth.

If 1st Thessalonians as you say is "the Rapture" then the whole thief in the night thingy goes out the window if you are a child of the light (born again saved person)

1 Thessalonians 5: 4-5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

[Alabama358]

Having several Bibles of various translative efforts is all well and good.
I'm quite sure that people in many repressive areas of the world feel fortunate if they can have, (and perhaps have to keep hidden,) one or two of the Gospels, yet they believe in the Lord with all their heart.
I believe we have a "finished work", and John warns us against either adding-to or taking away.

Well said!

[Bowdrie]

Alabama358, please, don't be pedantic.
You ask me about what parts of NT are written mostly to Jews, but then you quote me as saying that much of the Bible is written to Jews.
Yes, much of the Bible is written to Jews, why would you hammer me on what I didn't say.
Consider this; If we think that Adam/Eve are ~4,000BC and Genisis ends with the death of Jacob, we can see that about 1/3 of the entire timeline from Adam to us now in 2024 is contained in just that first book.
The NT is a "new" covenant, the cross event changed things, that is so self-evident that it can't be argued.
You asked about who are "they",, please consider CONTEXT, it ain't rocket science.
I expect that someone would already know that Jesus was speaking to His disciples in Matt 24, when I said "they" one should know that "they" were the disciples.
The "Church"?
I never said that the "church" excluded Jews, nor was the "church" only for Gentiles.
But I ask you to consider this; studies/reports conclude that only about 1% of the Jewish population of Israel today self-identifies as "Born Again Christian", and Israel has less than 10M people, it doesn't take much math to figure out that across the entire world that the "Church" of "Born Again Believers" is probably somewhere ~99.9999% Gentile, if not more.
The "Thief in the night"?
Of course, when Paul references "children of light" vs "children of darkness", he's differentiating between saved and un-saved, that's so easy to see.
We, the saved will "see" the day approaching, the un-saved will not, Jesus will come as a thief in the night to them, (the unsaved).
Paul had to tell them all that, some of them thought the Rapture had already happened and Paul is saying, "No, you're in the Light, why would you even need to ask me?"
Many theologians consider the Bible, (taken as a whole, both OT/NT,) is somewhere between ~20>30% prophetic, some even more.
But when time overtakes prophesy than the prophesy is no longer, it becomes history.
If someone takes the view of a Preterist, in that all had been fulfilled by ~100AD, then to that person the whole Bible is just a history book with the exceptions of passages relating to our "going to Heaven" when we die, (we assume we're not dead yet).
For that viewpoint I have no answer except to type a quote;
"For those who believe no explanation is necessary, for those who don't believe no explanation is possible".

[Alabama358]

You asked about who are "they",, please consider CONTEXT, it ain't rocket science.
I expect that someone would already know that Jesus was speaking to His disciples in Matt 24, when I said "they" one should know that "they" were the disciples.
The "Church"?
I never said that the "church" excluded Jews, nor was the "church" only for Gentiles.

OK... let us make it super simple.

- Is the New Testament written to everyone... all inclusive, without respect of persons, without exception, Jews/Gentiles, Same rules rewards and punishments for everyone?

- Where do you think the disciples fall under? Are they "The Church" or "The Jews"? (will they be raptured right along side you?)

- With regards to end times, is there two different programs? One for "The Jews" and one for the "Non Jews"

Stated differently
- A Gentile or Jew that believes on the Lord Jesus (born again saved) are raptured together in the same twinkling of an eye when that time has come? Yes or No?
- A Christ rejecting Gentile or Jew at the time of death or when the Lord Christ returns to collect his elect are both doomed to destruction? Yes or No?