Are you ready for the Rapture?

[Bowdrie]

I'll try to answer in as few words as I can.
I'll preface by saying that the path to salvation has always been open to all people thru out all time, from the time God created Adam.
Yes, the NT is written to all, with no respecter of persons.
Some may argue, it's ok, I believe that the Apostles are part of the "Church". I could easily be wrong, but I believe that the "Church age" started with Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit, (for the first time,) came into and stayed within believers on a 24/7/365 basis.
And I do believe that the Apostles, and all the believers of both Jew and Gentile, whether having died or are living at the time of the Rapture will be "Taken away/snatched away/raptured", "The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive will be caught-up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air".
You asked me about programs for Jew/non-Jew in regards to "end times".
How do we define "end times", 2,000 years ago the Thessalonians thought they were in "end times".
The modern thought is that "end times" started in 1948 with the re-birth of the nation of Israel.
My personal view is that the "real end times", (so to speak,) started when there were no prophecies left that "had" be fulfilled before a rapture could take place, I believe the Rapture could happen any day.
Jesus told the disciples a list of things that would happen before He returned, (Jesus was talking about when He would physically return to earth, not a "rapture").
When the disciples were asking Jesus all this stuff the cross event had not yet taken place, Jesus had not risen, and the Holy Spirit had not yet descended, and the disciples were still "under the law".
Even though Jesus had talked to them about the "Kingdom of Heaven" they still were looking for Him to be their King on an earthly kingdom.
They were shocked when He told them He must die/rise/go back to heaven.
So, they were asking him what the signs of would be his coming back to earth, and He answered them.
Jesus was not teaching "Rapture Theology" to the disciples, He was simply telling them things that would take place, and when they saw the "beginning" of those things to "Look-Up" that their redemption was near.
Different programs?
Yes, during the 7 years of Tribulation, (some say 3-1/2 years of Tribulation plus 3-1/2 years of Great Tribulation,) that's ok, there are different programs.
That's easy to see, suffice to say that the "man of sin" does not declare himself god in China, and the Armageddon battle doesn't take place on the plains of Kansas.
Both Jew and Gentile, if they die having rejected Christ both go to destruction.
Sin had enveloped the world, so God re-started with Noah and then chose Abraham to father a people that would (hopefully,) show the world that salvation from sin would come from God giving grace to those who would follow Him.
In effect, the Jewish people were supposed to do two things; 1, Be the caretakers of Gods Land, (Israel). 2, Be the "missionaries" of the world , (so to speak),
Well, for 2,000 years that didn't work out so well, so God sent Jesus, and the Jews rejected Him.
What could God do? From the snake in the Garden to Noah was roughly 2,000 years of rejection, then came rejection of the Messiah after roughly 2,000 years since Abraham, so then God gave the Gentiles about 2,000 years to accept Him as Lord and Savior over all.
Well, we've seen how the roughly three periods of about 2,000 years have worked out, right?
I'm not saying this lightly by any means, but God has been an "equal opportunity employer" in trying to get mans attention for the last ~6,000 years, and man has had his "3 strikes and you're out".
1, Adam to Noah, sin take over, God is rejected, that's strike 1.
2, Abram/Jews, reject the messiah, that's strike 2.
3, "The time of the Gentiles", further rejection of God, that's strike 3.
Man is OUT, and God comes to bat.
When the Tribulation starts God is going to be at home-plate, and He's going to be swinging a big bat, and the world is going to learn how hard He hits the ball.

[Good Cheer]

Someone may have written in the 6000 year time line after the fact but that doesn't alter the assurance that we are indeed on the cusp of the third day. Not to worry though seeing as my meat suit is just about worn out.

[Alabama358]

I'll try to answer in as few words as I can.

Dang Brother, that was the short version?

All kidding aside... I appreciate your honest, well thought out candid answers. many folks want to speak in riddles, talk in circles and cryptic sayings for fear that they might offend someone or worst yet draw a challenge and have to defend their position with scripture.

I actually thought we were further apart on the aforementioned questions but it seems that we are pulling on the same end of the rope on most everything with the exception of Matthew 24 (Mark 13, Luke 21) and the timing of the day of redemption.

- What is the Day of redemption?
- Which "Elect" is the Lord collecting
- When the Lord returns physically he will be on a white horse and with his saints in tow not collecting them... would you agree?

Jesus told the disciples a list of things that would happen before He returned, (Jesus was talking about when He would physically return to earth, not a "rapture"). He never mentions returning physically to earth... only that they will see him in the clouds. Is that just an assumption, because I don't see it written?
When the disciples were asking Jesus all this stuff the cross event had not yet taken place, Jesus had not risen, and the Holy Spirit had not yet descended, and the disciples were still "under the law".
Even though Jesus had talked to them about the "Kingdom of Heaven" they still were looking for Him to be their King on an earthly kingdom. Point of fact...they were asking him precisely about the end of the world as stated in verse 3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
They were shocked when He told them He must die/rise/go back to heaven.
So, they were asking him what the signs of would be his coming back to earth, Actually, they were asking him about the end of the world and He answered them.
Jesus was not teaching "Rapture Theology" to the disciples, He was simply telling them things that would take place, and when they saw the "beginning" of those things to "Look-Up" that their redemption was near. If Jesus was teaching about his 2nd coming and not the Rapture... why would he tell them to look up that their redemption is nigh if they had been Raptured (redeemed) approx. 3 1/2 years ago???

A few things to consider...
Christ never physically returns to earth in Matthew 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21. He appears in the clouds in all his glory and sends his angels with a great sound trumpet to collect his elect

Matthew 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:26
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:27
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

At the risk of getting long-winded I'll stop there

[Bowdrie]

When the nations see the Lord coming in power and glory, and great trumpet sounds, and all the tribes mourn is not a picture of the Rapture, in the rapture no one sees anything, the church just disappears before their eyes, "in the twinkle of an eye".
You'll also see if you back-up a few verses to Matt 24:15>21, you'll see that the "abomination" and Jesus telling the Jews to flee has already happened.
The passages about gathering the elect from the corners of the earth and the uttermost part of heaven, is not about the rapture either.
Would Jesus gather the elect from the uttermost parts of heaven for a "rapture" if some of the elect were already in heaven?
No, the "Elect" that the angels "gather" from the earth and heaven are the Jews, both those who are still alive and scattered around the earth, and the Jews in heaven.
What Matt/Mark/Luke are describing are extremely condensed versions of things taking place.
If you go back to Daniel 12:11>12, you'll see a 45 day period that is AFTER the 1290 days since the abomination.
This is the time in which the Jews are all gathered back to Israel, the "church" that returns with Jesus goes to their assignments all over the world, and the separation of the sheep/goats takes place, and Jesus restores order on the earth.
The tribulation ends with the return of Jesus at the end of the 1290 days, (when the whole world sees Him return,) but then there is that 45 day period where Jesus/the angels/the returned church, are busy "cleaning up the mess" so to speak.
That period is also when Satan is bound and his followers are tossed.
It's a busy 45 days.
I've tried to be short winded, LOL.

[Alabama358]

When the nations see the Lord coming in power and glory, and great trumpet sounds, and all the tribes mourn is not a picture of the Rapture, in the rapture no one sees anything, the church just disappears before their eyes, "in the twinkle of an eye".

I always ask folks from the Darby Pre-trib camp for a specific, crystal clear verse that confirms that "the Church" (as we have already established to include all Jew/Greek, bond/free, male/female which have believed on Jesus) Just disappears right in front of everyone's eyes and no one sees anything, no signs no wonders... just gone, (a bible verse that clearly states that this happens before the start of the 7 year period spoken of by Daniel the prophet.)

Is it...
1 Corinthians 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(if so, I just don't see anything that delineates a timeline... we can be pulled out at the beginning, the middle or the end in a twinkling of an eye. Of course the 2nd half is God's wrath so that rules that out)

Is it...
1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(a quick and easy read will show that God's wrath doesn't start until the 2nd half of the 7 year period)

- 3 1/2 years of tribulation
- Abomination of desolation (1/2 way point of the 7 year period)
- Brief period of Great Tribulation
- Almost 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath

Your take is that the Church is pulled out before the start of first 3 1/2 year period of tribulation???

There must be a verse of scripture that clearly state (one that you don't need to do biblical gymnastics to discern) that the day of redemption happens at the start of the week.

[Bowdrie]

Your take is that the Church is pulled out before the start of first 3 1/2 year period of tribulation???

Yes.

[Alabama358]

Yes.

Ok great...

I look forward to your scripture reference that clearly unambiguously spells out a Darby type disappearance right in front of everyone's eyes with no other signs... Before even the start of (as Christ calls it) the beginning of sorrows.

The Book of Revelation was written to his children to give them clear information and details regarding end times. There must be clear chapter and verse there that unequivocally spell out the great disappearance (pre-tribulation doctrine) even before the beginning of sorrows.

Furthermore, if we are indeed the justified children of the light... One would think that Christ during his earthly ministry would have spoken clearly to his faithful elect regarding the timing (not day and hour) and method of gathering them similar to what he said (to the Jews as you say) in Matthew 24

[Bowdrie]

The rapture is for the "church", also known as "the bride", or "the bride of Christ".
Some posit that the "church age" started with "died on the cross/rose from the dead", others, (me too,) believe that the church age started with Pentecost, at 50 days after the resurrection.
No, Jesus did not say, "Listen-up you guys, I'm gonna take you all away before "The wrath of the Lamb" gets started".
Jesus was not teaching rapture theology in Matt 24. He was teaching the Jewish disciples what would happen before He returned to earth at the end of the tribulation.
Paul, in 1st Thessalonians is speaking to the "Church/Bride" saying "God did NOT appoint us to suffer wrath,,,,".
To understand a Pre-Tribulation rapture, one must understand that the WHOLE 7-years IS God's wrath/The wrath of the Lamb.
Now let's fast forward for a bit; Right now, there are 193 countries that have delegations at the UN. Each delegation has 6 seats, 3 for the full delegates and 3 for the alternates, that is 1,158 seats in total.
The seats are all numbered, seat number 666 is vacant, nobody sits there right now, but soon someone will, ("The number of a man").
Ok, now we'll go back to John, writing in Rev. 6:2, this is the opening of the FIRST seal, and describes a rider on a white horse that's carrying a bow, BUT NO ARROWS, he rides out overcome and conquer.
What does he "overcome/conquer"?, he has the means of war, (the bow,) but does not use his weapons, he "overcomes/conquers" the nations by promising Peace and Safety, (and signs the covenant).
That rider of the first horse is the "unrevealed" man of sin who claims, "I can fix everything that's wrong" and the nations follow him
But it doesn't last, the 2nd horse is war, the third horse is famine, (famine always follows war), the 4th horse is all kinds of famine and death.
So, we've already had the 4 horses, and when we get to the 5th seal we see those who are under the alter who have believed and been slain for their belief, and they are told they have to wait a little longer.
God's wrath starts right after the man of sin signs/confirms the "covenant of/between many" that IS the start of the 7 year tribulation, the last 3-1/2 years is "Great" tribulation, ALL 7 years is "wrath".
Those first 16 verses in Rev 6 are not the whole story, it's a condensed "synopsis", (if you will,) of much of the tribulation.
When Jesus opens the 7th seal is when their is a silence in Heaven before the trumpet judgements start.
The book of Rev is not written in "perfect" sequential order, John goes back-and-forth a few times talking about things that are happening at once.
So, as a re-cap; Paul writes that the "church", all the believers living or dead will NOT suffer the "Wrath of God".
And that "Wrath" does indeed start with the first horse, (the man of sin signing the covenant).
Edit; I should clarify, there are more seats at the UN, there are additional seats to accommodate more delegates should additional countries join the UN.

[Nines&Twos]

Someone may have written in the 6000 year time line after the fact but that doesn't alter the assurance that we are indeed on the cusp of the third day. Not to worry though seeing as my meat suit is just about worn out.

Depending on how we count...we are in the 7th millennium from the beginning of the 2nd earth age. That would make this a sabbatical millennium. That probably doesn't mean anything. ....and I'm with you brother...I'm ready to trade in the corruptible for the incorruptible. No arthritis sounds like heaven to me.

[Alabama358]

The rapture is for the "church", also known as "the bride", or "the bride of Christ"....

So....NO specific actual chapter and verse of scripture, just a bunch of Darby pre-Trib talking points. (If that sounds offensive or argumentative... sorry I don't mean it that way, I just cant come up with another way to say it)

I ask the same question every time I have this discussion (Chapter and verse please) and get no applicable scripture or non-relevant scripture but the same old misguided talking points.
For example

- We are not appointed to GOD's wrath and the whole 7 years is Wrath (completely ignoring that Rev 6:12-17)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

After the Sun and Moon are darkened, stars falling from the sky etc. 1/2 way point of the 7 years, (hmmm just like Matthew 24)... THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH "IS" COME... is come, you know like just happened this day. Not 3 1/2 years ago... Keep in mind this is after the 6th Seal is opened

My original question

I always ask folks from the Darby Pre-trib camp for a specific, crystal clear verse that confirms that "the Church" (as we have already established to include all Jew/Greek, bond/free, male/female which have believed on Jesus) Just disappears right in front of everyone's eyes and no one sees anything, no signs no wonders... just gone, (a bible verse that clearly states that this happens before the start of the 7 year period spoken of by Daniel the prophet.)

I am still open to pondering the Pre-Trib doctrine if someone can give a specific, applicable, relevant scripture backing it up...

One would have to think that something as big as the LORD collecting his elect... there would be a least one unambiguous scripture. Unless it is just a doctrine of man formed from torturing scripture to... I am not even sure what it accomplishes.

[Bowdrie]

Back at the 5th seal you see those who have been "slain" as under the alter crying out "when will we be revenged".
These are not people who were killed by a hailstone or a building falling on them.
These are the ones that the anti-christ has had killed for not worshipping him or taking his mark.
That alone tells us that the 5th seal is almost at the end of the 7 years, Jesus tells them they have to wait "just a little longer,,,,,,".
God's plan for the 7 years is in ONE SCROLL that has 7 seals.
You can't read the scroll until all 7 seals have been broken. John is told that only Jesus can open the scroll.
The first 4 seals depict the first 4 horses, and the false peace wars/famines/pestilence that accompany them and the last 3 seals depict all kinds of other things that happen up to the point of Jesus setting foot on the earth.
The whole 7 years is "wrath" the last 3-1/2 years is "Great Wrath", and the "Great DAY of Wrath" is NOT a 3-1/2-year period, it is a final culmination of events before Jesus sets foot and destroys the armies that have encircled Jerusalem.
If you don't see the carnage that happens in the first 3-1/2 years as being "wrath", I have nothing to say that would make you, (or anybody,) believe it.
Rev 6:6 is only the 3rd seal, and people are already going to have to work all day just for enough grain to bake a loaf of bread.
Many theologians equate the "hurt not the oil and the wine" as being symbolic of the "rich people who don't worry about how much it costs to buy wheat/barley for bread to eat", that's ok, they get their comeuppance later in the 6th seal.
As far as the "One would think that Christ,,,,,,,,,,,," that you previously wrote, have you not wondered why Christ didn't lead anybody else to get on the Ark?
Noah sat there for a week to see if anybody else would join him and his family, no one did.
Jesus said the latter days would be like Noah.
Salvation thru Jesus has been preached all over the world for 2,000 years and the door of the Ark is going to close right soon.
God didn't send the "tribulation" of the flood until the door of the Ark was closed, and then "tribulation" came.
When the 1st seal is opened, and the rider arrives, the "door", (as it were,) is closed, the "Church/Bride" is gone and those left will go thru the tribulation of 7 years.

[exile]

You might consider the idea that the church is not mentioned in the book of Revelation after the second chapter. And who is this Darby fellow anyway? Just kidding, it's all in good fun!

Has anyone read any of David Jeremiah's books on the Rapture?

exile

[Alabama358]

You might consider the idea that the church is not mentioned in the book of Revelation after the second chapter. And who is this Darby fellow anyway? Just kidding, it's all in good fun!

If the church is not mention in the Book of Revelation after the second chapter... then who do you suppose the great multitude, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, which just appear in Revelation Chapter 7?
Well, read down a few verses and he tells you... the elect/church (not the Jews because it obviously says all nations, kindreds, and people) that were just pulled out of GREAT Tribulation... Hmmmm that seems to match up Perfect with Matthew 24, Wonder why???
Take a moment to study the two side by side and it will become manifestly clear



Revelation 7:9-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matthew 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Has anyone read any of David Jeremiah's books on the Rapture?

exile

David Jeremiah is another huckster making money hand over fist selling books and making and selling movies aimed at the folks that have bought in to the great disappearing nonsense

[Alabama358]

Bowdrie

My question was in search of... a crystal clear verse that confirms that "the Church" (as we have already established to include all Jew/Greek, bond/free, male/female which have believed on Jesus) Just disappears right in front of everyone's eyes and no one sees anything, no signs no wonders... just gone, (a bible verse that clearly states that this happens before the start of the 7 year period spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

And you give me some made up junk like "the last 3-1/2 years is "Great Wrath", and the "Great DAY of Wrath" is NOT a 3-1/2-year period"

My guess is that you have no clear Scripture that validates the this disappearing right in front of everyone's eyes and no one sees anything, no signs no wonders doctrine.

This is usually where people go when they cant come up with clear chapter and verse and pull out the "your not rightly dividing the word of truth". 2 Timothy 2:15 and try to apply it to lack of scripture

[Alabama358]

And who is this Darby fellow anyway? Just kidding, it's all in good fun!

exile

It did give me a chuckle... thanks for the humor

[Bowdrie]

The "church" does not come "Out" of the tribulation, it's gone beforehand.
If you go back to Rev. 6:11 you'll see that the "great multitude" are all wearing white robes.
We, (the church,) get robes too, but we ain't carrying palm branches.
That great multitude are those who have been martyred for their faith during the tribulation.
It's generally accepted that the tribulation will see the greatest revival in history, the number of them maybe exceeding the number who believe now by "faith only", (the church).
They are the ones who have "seen" and now believe.
If you think that David Jerimiah is just a "huckster" then I suppose that Cyrus Scofield, Vernon McGee, Billy Graham, and Chuck Smith were all hucksters too.
And I guess that you would think that Jack Hibbs, Mark Hitchcock, Jonathon Cahn, and a few thousand others are also hucksters.
I believe that all those I mentioned are "Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth" at a higher degree than you are, (or probably anyone else on this forum, including me).

[Good Cheer]

Best path forward...
With an open mind and honest heart closely study the teachings those who you think are incorrect.
They will not only teach you where they have been in error but also where you yourself have erred.
Be prepared to surrender to the truth and lay aside lies that you have cherished.

[Good Cheer]

Depending on how we count...we are in the 7th millennium from the beginning of the 2nd earth age. That would make this a sabbatical millennium. That probably doesn't mean anything. ....and I'm with you brother...I'm ready to trade in the corruptible for the incorruptible. No arthritis sounds like heaven to me.

When that all consuming fire burns away the corruptible, what a great day it will be!

[Nines&Twos]

When that all consuming fire burns away the corruptible, what a great day it will be!

You got that right. Some read and fail to get out of the english...erroneously reading 'elements' as the whole world. The word is RUDIMENTS. I look forward to that day where the rudiments are melted away with fervent heat...I look forward to seeing my own rudiments burned away and whatever is left can bask peacefully in the warm shekhinah breeze.



...of course...a lot of errors could be avoided if people understood the english they are reading (and blindly trusting) didn't exist until a century or so after Christ ascended. The scholars and scribes that worked under King James orders did a spectacular job but as I have mentioned before...they admitted in their preface letter in the original 1611 version...errors exist. Making a prayerful effort to get further back in the language will reward you beyond measure. Father WILL give wisdom if you seek it. He promised it. He cannot lie.

[dverna]

This exchange confirms my belief that the Bible is not "divinely inspired". God's word has been corrupted by man for thousands of years. When people who are honest believers cannot agree on what the Bible says, it should concern all of us!!

God knows we are sheep. Why would He inspire scripture the average man cannot fully comprehend? Why does it take "biblical scholars" to pry "the truth" out of God's word? And which scholar is a normal man to believe? Why would He leave us dependent on men to understand His word?

In my limited study of this part of the Bible I have concluded. IT DOES NOT MATTER! You may ask why?

How Jesus returns does affect how we should live our lives. It does not affect our need to accept Jesus if we want salvation. It does not affect the fact He will return. It does not draw me closer to Him. In short....IT DOES NOT MATTER.

People getting their undies in a knot over this is not constructive. It does not bring others to Christ. It does not boost our faith in Him. It does not make us better people...in fact it seems to foster divisiveness amongst believers.

If someone can succulently explain to me why this matters, I am all ears!!! If it is an exercise of who is smarter, or more "learned" I am not interested. We are all dumber than rocks compared to Him.