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Thread: How fast is fast enough?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    How fast is fast enough?

    I found a load with a 255 gr. rn flat point that my 1873 absolutely loves (.45 Colt). 1 inch 5 shot groups at 50 yards with peep sights. I haven't had a chance to chrono the load yet, but will soon. I want to use it for whitetails. The reason I'm asking is because the load isn't particularly hot, in fact it is pretty mid range. Considering the weight of the boolit, shape and caliber, what is a reasonable velocity for hunting deer. Yes I know it is subjective and I'm opening a can of worms, but what the heck!

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Talk about opening a can of worms, man you did it.

    Considering whitetail aren't all that hard to kill, (they can't read the hunting magazines, and I have yet to find one with an internet connection) I would say that anything in the 1,000 to 1,200 fps range will be plenty.

    This is assuming (I really don't like that word) shortish ranges of under 125-150 yards, which I am inferring from you target distance of 50 yards.

    I think a reasonable load from your 1873 should be able to at least approach a heavily loaded .44 Special or .45 Colt handgun load, without stressing the action too much.

    It will be interesting to see the more knowledgeable responses,

    Robert

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Big heavy slow boolits kill them deader

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mk42gunner View Post
    Talk about opening a can of worms, man you did it.

    Considering whitetail aren't all that hard to kill, (they can't read the hunting magazines, and I have yet to find one with an internet connection) I would say that anything in the 1,000 to 1,200 fps range will be plenty.

    This is assuming (I really don't like that word) shortish ranges of under 125-150 yards, which I am inferring from you target distance of 50 yards.

    I think a reasonable load from your 1873 should be able to at least approach a heavily loaded .44 Special or .45 Colt handgun load, without stressing the action too much.

    It will be interesting to see the more knowledgeable responses,

    Robert
    Couple of suggestions
    1) sneak up close, gunners shortish 125 -150 is long range in my book ( pistol load in a 73 with iron sights?)
    2) practice shoot offhand - standing unsupported - wherever you can keep every shot within three inches of your aim point (thats a six inch group dead centered) is your maximum range......a)its a reality check b) your trigger discipline will improve at a rapid rate - the chance of pulling a bad shot in the field will be much less

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Jedman's Avatar
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    jimb16, I have seen many deer killed with cartridges much less powerful than your mid power 45 Colts.
    Two years ago I shot a buck with a injured leg ( not from me ) with a antique rifle that I barreled in 38 special and killed it just fine, double lung shot ran a ways and fell over.
    In Ohio 38 special is a legal caliber for deer , just about the minimum and I felt confident in hitting the spot I wanted and it worked out.
    I have shot deer with the 45 ACP and found it very effective, so I say if your rifle shoots as good as you say and you can shoot deer as well as a target ( a lot can’t ) then you have no worries.

    Jedman

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    My ability to shoot well isn't a problem. I'm good enough to have medalled at the nationals, so I think that isn't a problem. I enjoy shooting small pieces of clay birds off-hand at 100 yards on the rifle range. Mostly I hunt from a blind so I can even use a rest if I feel like it. My max shooting distance where I hunt is 80 yards so I don't have to worry about much boolit drop. I just want to be certain that I have enough power to drop a good buck in his tracks with a well placed shot. Last year I took a fair sized but small racked buck at 40 yards, but I wasn't happy with the load that I was using as far as consistent accuracy was concerned. And yes, he did drop in his tracks. But I want to be better than last year. I want to be confident with an 80 yard shot, not 40 yards. I know I can put the shot into a 4 inch or less group at 80, but I want to be sure I've got the power to do the job right. Those flat points make one heck of a hole, but there is just too much heavy cover and too many swamps in the area if the deer runs any distance. I've shot and killed many deer with shotgun, cross bow, flintlocks and rifle and never lost one even though I have had to track 3 of them. But the area I'm hunting these days is heavier cover than anywhere else that I've hunted. I want to stack the odds as much in my favor as possible.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Jedman's Avatar
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    I have found that no matter what gun / caliber you use you can never absolutely guarantee to drop a deer in it tracks. I’m not saying a perfectly placed head or neck shot wount do that but I don’t often use those shots because there is more risk in the animal moving right when the trigger is breaking and a couple inches off your POA and you have a wounded animal. But it is never because the bullet wasn’t fast enough.

    Jedman

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb16 View Post
    My ability to shoot well isn't a problem. I'm good enough to have medalled at the nationals, so I think that isn't a problem. I enjoy shooting small pieces of clay birds off-hand at 100 yards on the rifle range. Mostly I hunt from a blind so I can even use a rest if I feel like it. My max shooting distance where I hunt is 80 yards so I don't have to worry about much boolit drop. I just want to be certain that I have enough power to drop a good buck in his tracks with a well placed shot. Last year I took a fair sized but small racked buck at 40 yards, but I wasn't happy with the load that I was using as far as consistent accuracy was concerned. And yes, he did drop in his tracks. But I want to be better than last year. I want to be confident with an 80 yard shot, not 40 yards. I know I can put the shot into a 4 inch or less group at 80, but I want to be sure I've got the power to do the job right. Those flat points make one heck of a hole, but there is just too much heavy cover and too many swamps in the area if the deer runs any distance. I've shot and killed many deer with shotgun, cross bow, flintlocks and rifle and never lost one even though I have had to track 3 of them. But the area I'm hunting these days is heavier cover than anywhere else that I've hunted. I want to stack the odds as much in my favor as possible.
    you cant push a 44/40 fast enough (particularly in a 73) to generate the hydraulic shock that comes with a high velocity round (308 kind of thing) so you have wound channel damage and shot placement to rely on. You reckon you shoot pretty good - so look to the boolit - if your cast is a little too hard you will drill a .44 diameter hole clear through bambi and if you dont hit a vital organ or break a leg - maybe you get to do some trackin ? Test your boolit alloy until you get decent expansion at your load velocity - a one inch hole from an expanded projectile causes four times the tissue damage (in theory) than one that dont expand.
    I never shot a whitetail but they dont look all that much tougher than a decent size roo - 200pound? fairly thin skin - easy enough to drill holes in em ? but a drilled one will run far enough on adrenaline to cause you some trouble finding it.

    I would be casting pure soft lead if it will shoot ok and failing that as soft as you can get away with.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master smkummer's Avatar
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    My Lyman loading books show that standard pressure 45 colt with that bullet at 850-900 FPS in a handgun gets 1050-1100 in a rifle using unique. Using a slower powder may add 50-75 FPS more in a rifle. That should work just fine. I have a colt burgess repro and it shoots Lyman’s 454190 sized to 454 with 9 grains unique well, even out to 200 yards when I flip up the carbine ladder sight for a 24” metal plate.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    At kitchen garden ranges within 50 yards, a 250-grain or heavier .45 cal. bullet, of soft lead, such as 1 to 40 tin-lead, having a meplat of 0.6 of the bullet diameter or larger, which hits the deer at 800 fps or more, will shoot clear through the deer lengthwise on "Texas heart shots" or shoot through both shoulders broadside and exit. Shot placement, through and through penetration are key. Standard pressure .45 Colt loads fired in a carbine are subsonic with mild report and will do the job if you do yours. I use the Accurate 45-264H bullet in the .45 Colt with 6.5 grains of Bullseye for 1080 fps from my H&R Handi Rifle.

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  11. #11
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    Good knowledgeable recommendations above!!

    I have been doing exactly what your wanting for decades. 1k-1200fps is all ya need as long as ya have chosen a proper bullet and its accurate. Last thing is limiting range. Absolute max for me is 100 and half that a ton better.

    For a bullet a WFP (large 60+% meplat) is a good hunting bullet.

    Powders I rely heavily upon Unique. But many others work too!

    Accuracy isnt tantamount, but may be a limiting factory in distance as well.

    Id choose a CAST bullet of moderate hardness. (12 ish BHN) lil Harder as ya go faster. I have found that 20:1 works good in a HP to 1200. And 1400 as a FP. WW air cooled will cover ya to about 1500. And quenched 2K.

    My lead and my tests.

    CW

    Good luck and have fun!

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  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwlongshot View Post
    Good knowledgeable recommendations above!!

    I have been doing exactly what your wanting for decades. 1k-1200fps is all ya need as long as ya have chosen a proper bullet and its accurate. Last thing is limiting range. Absolute max for me is 100 and half that a ton better.

    For a bullet a WFP (large 60+% meplat) is a good hunting bullet.

    Powders I rely heavily upon Unique. But many others work too!

    Accuracy isnt tantamount, but may be a limiting factory in distance as well.

    Id choose a CAST bullet of moderate hardness. (12 ish BHN) lil Harder as ya go faster. I have found that 20:1 works good in a HP to 1200. And 1400 as a FP. WW air cooled will cover ya to about 1500. And quenched 2K.

    My lead and my tests.

    CW

    Good luck and have fun!

    CW

    Why the hard lead? he wants to drop em on the spot. I woulda thought some expansion would help that happen?

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    In the few places on a deer where a drop them in their tracks shot might work I doubt that boolit expansion is going to be a factor. If it is going to be into the spine I'd want a little harder boolit to ensure full penetration and damage. In my Rossi .45 Colt and 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk the Lee 255 RNFP (air-cooled WW lubed with 45-45-10) over 8.0 grains of Win 231 works well. My $.02. GF

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

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    Got out with the chrono today. I don't think this load is going to do what I want. 875 fps avg. SD 7 fps. Will try some heavier loads with the same bullet and powder and see what happens. If the groups don't open up too much and I can get the vel up to 1000fps then it will work, but as it is right now, I think it is a bit underpowered.

  15. #15
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    I start low with the boolit weight I want and work up to the most accurate load for the distance I plan to shoot at.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Never cared to shoot at deer with low velocity pistol cartridges as the 45 Colt is considered to be.
    "Why chance a long recovery walk."

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    i feel obligated to use what i think will be most effective. id feel weird using something very mild with far less recoil than i could still shoot well. 45acp handgun performance from a rifle would fall in that category for me.

    i dont like the shot placement is all that matters argument, deer at 50 yds arent exactly tiny and a faster boolit dont mean your gonna miss it. feel like its some kind of fallacy

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb16 View Post
    Got out with the chrono today. I don't think this load is going to do what I want. 875 fps avg. SD 7 fps. Will try some heavier loads with the same bullet and powder and see what happens. If the groups don't open up too much and I can get the vel up to 1000fps then it will work, but as it is right now, I think it is a bit underpowered.
    Really????? you should be able to get 1200with a decent blackpowder load!!!!

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    What indian joe said. As far as bullet is concerned, along with others I prefer a wide meplat as well. With cast bullets expansion isn't even part of my equation. That's a carry over from jacketed bullet use and I don't believe it applicable to cast bullets...solely my opinion. I'll take meplat, penetration and bullet weight every time...and I've killed a pile of game with heavy for caliber cast bullets.
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  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I admire your desire to take game reliably. I have seem some posts that make me cringe. One guy neck shooting deer offhand at 100 yards with a 9mm carbine, one taking a 250 yard+ shot with a .45LC carbine...etc etc.

    I cannot help you with your situation, but I would follow the advice of someone like Outpost75. Not saying others are not "worthy" but OP75 does a lot of testing and shooting and I believe he is a very reliable source of information.

    As to the bullet placement argument, it is a given. You have better ability to make the shot than most, and that is a significant advantage. But Murphy is ever lurking and a well executed shot can encounter a twig when hunting in heavy cover. In my case, I hunt from blinds where there are shooting lanes cut into the woods, logging roads and/or power lines. I turn down shots that may be deflected (I use HV HP jacketed .308) as I also want clean kills. There are thick heavy swamps that make tracking "interesting".
    Don Verna


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