Hp38/w231
Hp38/w231
Back in my IPSC days, I loaded a whole bunch of .45 ACP with AA#5 using a Lee Disc Measure installed on my old Dillon 450. That was a few years back but I don't recall any significant problem(s).
Bill
"I'm not often right but I've never been wrong."
Jimmy Buffett
"Scarlet Begonias"
I lapped my powder measure. I used Mothers polish. It cut the leaking way way down. It used to leak bad with fine powders. Now and them i'll get a few flakes that come out.
One round at a time.
Member of the NRA,GOA and FAOC. Gun clubs Zerby rod and gun club. Keystone Fish and Game Association.
I like to use different poweders and still get consistent weights. Fine powders like BullsEye are great, but messy. My two go to ideas for the flake and granular powders is: Use one of those sheet metal baffles in the round Lee hopper and set your vibratory case cleaner on the table and turn it on. The loads will be a little heavier than your non vibrated rounds and a smaller disc may be needed.
prs
tite group (still leaked)
HP38 did well
W231 no leaking
HP38 no leaking
Red dot meters well
Unique meters well
BE-86 meters well
2400 meters well
231 meters well
296 leaks a little
IMR SR 7625
W231 pretty good
Unique should flow well
Trailboss should flow well
W231 good charges
Acc #2 good charges
BE-86 great in auto disk
WST measures well
Bullseye measures well
Titegroup
HP38 +0/-.1gn
AA#2 +0/-.1gn
#5 +0/-.1gn
Ramshot Silhouette +0/-.1gn
HP38
W231
looks like HP38/W231 is the clear winner
Smashed spherical is definitely thicker than the thin flakey stuff so that should make sense as far as improvement in metering.
Hodgdon says 4.4 to 5.6gns for a 200gn LSWC ...perfect
Velocities are fine for my purposes.
Now to get my filthy little hands on some....MUHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
I have used Bullseye for my 45 rounds and on the Lee pro Auto Disk and the when I got my 9mm kit I bought the Auto Drum measure and both have been dead on accurate with no leaks.
Just as a point of information on what I have posted about Red Dot . I used Bullseye for years and have 0 complaints it's a great old standby , what switched me to red dot was loading 32s it bulks up much more than bullseye per grain I found that with the auto disk I could throw smaller charges by weight - larger by volume with red dot than bullseye and it was very accurate for where I use it and is easier to find at my supplier in lean times than bullseye . Bullseye has a big advantage in that it is hard to find a manual for pistol ammo that does not show loads for bullseye . They are both great , bullseye works better in more measures than does red dot . Both work great in the auto disk on the LCT , on my progressive bullseye is more consistent as it is in my bench mounted measures. There are lots of good powders I think I have used about all that have been mentioned but always come back to these 2 for most of my loads that they serve well for a combination of reasons.
You have lots of good choices.
Warning: thread drift!
In an older worn Lyman 55, AA no.2 sometimes binds up the barrel. It is so small that it can either bind up measures, or leak from them. It’s a great powder and in a tight measure it can run wonderfully.
Bullseye doesn’t bind up my old well loved Lyman 55.
JM
I can't help you with the Lee Auto disk BUT HP-38 (AKA WW231) meters perfectly in my Dillon powder measure.
I currently use ww231 / HP-38 (they are the exact same powder) in my standard 45 ACP load. When the 231 runs out I may switch to Bullseye but that may be a long time in the future.
Bullseye also meters perfectly in the Dillon.
guy,
The variation in charge weight with flake powder may not be as detrimental to accuracy as you think. If you are looking for the most accurate load you should also include the flake powders and test the results on paper.
During the powder shortage of 2008 about the only powder I could find was Red Dot and I bought about 15 pounds of the stuff and still have 12 pounds left. It does not meter as consistently as the more fine grain powders, so during the early stages of the stay at home phase of this pandemic I decided to test all of my powder measures (Hornady, RCBS, Lee Auto Disk, Lee Auto Drum, and Dillon) on several of my progressive presses to find which combination produced the most consistent charge weights. Sample size was 116 charges for each combination. The most consistent was the Dillon powder measure (extra small slide) on the Dillon 550 and the second was the Hornady on the Hornady Lock-n-Load press, with extreme spreads of .28 grains and .36 grains, respectively, weighed on a scale accurate to .02 grains. The least accurate was the Lee Auto Drum with an extreme spread of .52 grains. Curious to know what difference it made on target I loaded 96 rounds with new .38 Special Starline brass, 125 grain Falcon truncated cone bullets sorted by weight, and 4.0 grains of Red Dot weighed to plus/minus .02 grains and 96 rounds loaded with the Lee Auto Drum measure that were plus/minus .26 grains. At 25 yards from the Ransom Rest the weighed 16 six shot groups averaged 1.54 inches and the measured 16 six shot groups averaged 1.64 inches. The total spread for the 96 weighed shots was 2.84 inches and the total spread for the measured 96 shots was 2.96 inches. I don't have the chronograph data handy but remember that the extreme spread was in excess of 100 feet fps for the measured loads but it seemed to have little effect on target at 25 yards.
Edited to add: The target weight for all the powder measure tests was 4.0 grains because that is a load that all my .38 Specials like.
You can improve the accuracy of the Auto Disk powder measure by reducing the gap between the top of the disk and the bottom of the reservoir. File a couple of thousandths from each of the metal rails the reservoir attaches to until you can barely see light as you look across the top of the disk. Using the .61cc hole, the extreme spread went from .46 grains to .32 grains of Red Dot with a sample size of 100 charges but it also reduced the average weight per charge from 4.05 grains to 3.89 grains. Leaking with Red Dot, Bullseye, TiteGroup, and Power Pistol powders was also reduced. I have not tested any stick powders and do not know if performance with those powders will be adversely affected.
Gus Youmans
Last edited by Gus Youmans; 08-10-2020 at 04:01 PM.
That is excellent information. Thanks for posting your tests and results.
Gus very informative post thanks.
Thanks from me too.
I also use the Lee Disk measure on a Loadmaster. I have used mostly AA 2, 5, and 7 along with TiteGroup. All work fairly well and all leak a little (not enough for me to worry about, just kind of a dust left over). They all measured well, after I changed out the bead chain on the powder measure. I use a spring now. Hook it to the powder measure and the other end is secured to the frame of the Loadmaster. Spring is about 1/2" dia and 4" or so long, kinda soft. Just enough to reset the measure. I got tired of the bead chain getting out of whack or breaking.
It should be no secret that fine ball powders will meter more accurately than large flake powders. Sure, Accurate #5 will meter extremely accurately. The problem for me is that ball powders have never been quite as good as flake powders, even though the flake powders vary slightly more from the measure. Don't go to a ball powder, just because. Find one that shoots good, and use it. Myself, I just accept the flake powder variation, as I never could get a ball powder to be more accurate. I use American Select. While it doesn't shoot as good in my gun, one of the better ball powders is HS-6.
Clays powder works good in the auto disc and I have no trouble with bullseye or unique. You can tap the auto disc on the side or lift the press handle just a little and then down to tap the auto disc to assure all powder has dropped. I use a powder check die that will tell me right away of there is to much or to little of a powder charge..
Earlier in this thread, I posted the results of a test of the effects of weighed versus measured charges of Red Dot in the .38 Special, finding that there was little difference. Last weekend I decided to run a similar test with .45 ACP. Using Starline once fired brass, RCBS 185 SWCBB bullets, Federal primers, and Red Dot powder I weighed powder charges for 50 rounds at 4.0 grains plus/minus .02 grains. Another 50 rounds were loaded using the .61cc hole in the Lee Auto Disk powder measure that averaged .39 grains plus or minus .16 grains with a standard deviation of .06 grains and extreme spread of 4.04 to 3.72 grains, or .32 grains.
The gun was a little used hardball gun that is mostly a safe queen. Firing five, ten shot groups out of the Ransom Rest at 25 yards, groups with the weighed charges averaged 1.36 inches (1.07 to 1.68 inches) and the measured charges averaged 1.77 inches (1.15 to 2.47 inches), including an obvious unexplained flier in the largest group that was .6 inches outside the group. Additionally, groups with the weighed charges were generally rounder than the measured charges. Ninety-eight of the shots went into a group of 1.94 inches with one round opening the group to 2.23 inches and the obvious flier further opening the group to 2.54 inches. Without the two errant shots the group would have held the X-ring on a standard bullseye target but all shots would have been in the ten ring.
Velocities were measured with a Chrony at about ten feet. The rounds loaded with the Auto Disk showed dispersion of 47 fps versus 75 fps for the weighed charges, which seems counterintuitive given that the groups were smaller with the weighed charges. However, standard deviation for the measured charges was 14.23 while the weighed charges was 13.30, seemingly indicating that standard deviation may be more indicative of accuracy than extreme spread. The average velocity of the measured charges was 821 while the average velocity for the weighed charges was 824, a difference of only three fps.
Given this limited test, it seems that the .45 ACP is more sensitive to powder charge fluctuation than the .38 Special. However, these results only apply to the guns and loads used in this experiment as any change in the guns, loads, components and reloading equipment would likely produce different results. The only real conclusion that I can discern from this experiment is that any changes to components, techniques, or equipment are probably going to produce different results and, if the reloader is seeking the most accurate loads, he must test to ascertain if the changes will adversely affect the outcome.
Gus Youmans
This is NOT meant to disparage anyone but....
Even given the normal charge-to-charge variation with flake powders (Bullseye, Red Dot, erc) thrown from measures, well assembled .45 ACP ammunition will surpass the accuracy potential of all but accursed pistols and all but a small percentage of shooters. Pick the powder that is least problematic in your measure (or get a better measure) and don't get about it.
I dug out and old lee auto disc and sanded the disc flat, colored the top and bottom with pencil graphite and use bullseye with no leaks.
I will admit I don't shoot pistol for accuracy, but it drops around 4.2 grs almost always
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |