Questions about a S&W N Frame in 45 ACP

[Art in Colorado]

I know you need to use those round clips to fire ACP. But I guess I could use 45 Auto Rim brass. Is that true? Also, I was told a long time ago that the rifeling in ACP N Frames was more shallow then the other calibers. Is this true? I would want to shoot cast and if true would this be a problem? The one I am looking at on consignment has the Hillary hole. Any problem with the cylinder throats? Sorry for all the dumb questions. I have been an owner of many N Frames dating back to the 80's but not this caliber. I am not sure about it. I am thinking about this one instead of a 1911.

[Thumbcocker]

The Smith N frame .45 acp's can be stunningly accurate. I have a 90's vintage model of 1989 that shoots like it has eyes. I always use the Lyman 452460 with W231. Alloy is ACWW. The old models of 1955 had issues with oversized cylinder mouths but the more modern ones are more consistent. Auto rim brass is fine. I do not have a high opinion of the new electronically etched rifling in the current Smith's for boolits, but others seem to do fine with them.

[No_1]

The S&W Model 25/625 will fire ACP rounds without the moon clips or ”half moon” clips. However, moon clips are needed if you wish to extract the cases with any amount of speed. Auto Rim is an option with brass being available from Starline. Loading auto-rim is the same as ACP with the exception of a different shell plate / shell holder.

I shoot a bunch of 45acp so I use moon clips in my 25’s / 625’s. I keep about 50 moon clips loaded and stored in an ammo can for shooting purposes. I do suggest purchasing a “de-mooner” to ease separating the spent brass from the moon clips.

Auto Rim brass which can be loaded using standard ACP dies as long as the correct shell plate / shell holder is utilized.

[TNsailorman]

I have a Thunder Ranch .45acp revolver and it is more accurate than I am. I use both .45acp brass with moon clips or .45AR from Starline. As already stated, you can use .45acp brass in a revolver but you will have to poke them fired case out of the cylinder with a short stick as the star extractor on the revolver usually will not do so. Either works well but the rimmed brass is a lot more easy to use. As both the posters above said, they both work and I cannot tell any accuracy difference between the 2. I shoot 200 gran SWC's and also some 225 grain SWC hollow points. Some brass is a little tougher to get to load in the moon clips than others but it is a matter of slight differences in the brass itself and does not effect the revolver once a moon clips is loaded. I have been shooting the .45acp/AR since the early 60's and I very much intend to continue shooting it. I have owned several pistols and revolvers in this caliber and have yet to find one that is not accurate. my experience anyway, j ames

[El Bibliotecario]

I would suggest that if time spent loading and unloading includes clipping rounds and unclipping spent brass, it may actually be faster to load individual rounds without clips. In decades of shooting I have seen no need for clips. Individual fired cases are effortlessly removed from the cylinder with one's fingertips. But that's just me.

[Outpost75]

My .45 ACP Model 625 of 1989 had the etched rifling and leaded incessantly and resisted all attempts to lap or otherwise smooth the barrel, so I sold it.

[Harter66]

The 2 I shoot were made in August and September of 1918 . In ACP or AR cases it didn't care for the assorted 250-265 gr bullets but shoots the other 195-230 gr without any fault into 4" Weaverish off hand groups which is plenty for it's original intent .

The rifling is shallow here and I think that if I stepped up to 75/25 or even straight WW from 50/50 WW-pure it would improve . The Bubba'd example has Schofield depth chambers and shoots the 454424 250 gr NOE version well in Schofield cases headspaced on the mouth .

I don't believe the newer version will be any different , maybe wanting WQWW or like hardness .

If it's good enough for the fastest shooters on the planet it's good enough for me .

See Revolver Supply for moon clips and tools . I split 100 clips with a buddy that bought a Governor , we got 105 delivered with shipping at 79¢ ea .
I made several demooning tools from steel shaft golf clubs . Drivers are best and can be had for a $1-3 at most thrift stores . There's a thread here with pix making one . 1 of mine holds 2 clips worth . Loaders would be nice but are not needed , just press and rotate slightly and rounds snap in . Stacked with layer separation a 30 cal can 350 rounds fit with a little wiggle room , that's 7 boxes worth , seems like a lot of recreational shooting . Takes me about 10 seconds to unload a clip and the same to load it up but it's a TV task to reload them . I don't see loading the clips as any more time consuming than loading mags .

[Mk42gunner]

I had a 6½" Model 25-2 close to thirty years ago. No .45AR to be found in SoCal at the time so I just shot .45 ACP, mostly in full moon clips, never had any half moons.

185-200 ish projectiles hit to point of aim, 230 grain hardball needed a taller front sight. It still grouped well though.

I made my own demooner out of a short piece of ½" copper and an end cap, filing a ledge on the end to twist against the clip.

Kind of wish I had kept that revolver, but N-frames just don't fit my hand very well.

Robert

[tominboise]

FWIW, I have 4 S&W 45ACP handguns - two of the 1989 model N Frames, one 1911 and one 4506. As mentioned, the N frames are stunningly accurate and a great hoot to shoot. My two semi autos are going on the auction block. I have a 4" and 5" N frame and will buy a 3" to fill out the trio. I highly recommend the N frame.

As an aside, it's also nice to not have to chase brass all over when shooting them. I use moon clips for mine.

[Drm50]

I have two 25-2s and shoot AR brass and cast boolits. I hate messing with moons.

[StrawHat]

45 ACP revolvers from S&W have responded favorably to cast boolits for many decades. On older revolvers the rifling is shallow and also has 6 lands and grooves instead of 5. Newer S&W ACP revolvers have deeper rifling. The ones I shoot span a bit more than 90 years with the oldest being built for the Great War in 1918. I went the route of more tin in my alloy (per Elmer Keith) but found using aproperly sized boolit to be the most advantageous step.

Ranch Products (Malinta, Ohio) is the original maker of the modern full moon clip. And I believe the least expensive option. RIMZ makes a polymer clip that does not require tools to load or unload but the are roud of their products. By that I mean they are pricey.

Unloaders have been covered. I use a simple tube with a ledge cut to hook the clip. Loaders are a bit more complicated but still easily built. I was using a home built to load up some cull moons when Pop came over to visit. He wanted to belp but I had only built one loader. He heads out to the tool roomand. Omes back with a large set of water pump pliers. Next thing I know, he is squeezing two cartridges at a time into the moon clips. So, ther are all sorts of ways to accomplish this.

A bit of history. S&W saw that the US wiuld be dragged into the war so in 1915 started work on modifying the 2nd Model Hand Ejector in 44 Special to chamber and fire the 45 ACP cartridge. That was the easy part. Harder was getting the dmpties out of the chlinder. They came up with two methods and patented them both. One was the half moon clip with which we are all familiar. The other was a full moon clip. They were both made available to the Military and the 1/2 moon clip was chosen. S&W learned from the ACW and made the clip avaiable to the Colt factory to use in there 1917. It was important as Colt revolvers did not headspace on the mouth of the cartridge but relied on the clips fors headspacing. This was soon corrected when the Military complained.

Anyway, since I haven’t seen any photos, here are some of my ACP revolvers.





Kevin

[ddixie884]

Nice revolvers. Mine is a 1950 Target cut to 5'' and reblued.

[Jtarm]

I would suggest that if time spent loading and unloading includes clipping rounds and unclipping spent brass, it may actually be faster to load individual rounds without clips. In decades of shooting I have seen no need for clips. Individual fired cases are effortlessly removed from the cylinder with one's fingertips. But that's just me.

The only purpose for moons is action pistol competition. They’re the fastest reload possible for a revolver, and none load faster than a 6 shot .45 ACP. Trying to get 8 skinnier rounds aligned is a little more difficult.

I guess you could carry them for SD, but they’re hard to conceal (as is an N frame revolver.) However the real problem is if they become even slightly bent, the cylinder won’t close, or will bind. Not a good problem to deal with when under fire.

They’re also an all-or-nothing proposition that rely on nothing but gravity to chamber the rounds, meaning if even one round won’t seat completely, none will and the cylinder won’t close, or will bind. Loading a revolver manually or even from an SL, it’s easy to spot a round that won’t seat and press it in or pull it out and go with five. My .45 ACP reloads go through a Lee FCD. Chambers & brass are kept squeaky clean.

I also once had problems with some remanufactured .45 ACP ammo. Some of the cases were a bit long and wouldn’t play nice with the moons (wonder what they would’ve done in an auto-loader?)

You might gather from the above that I’m not a fan of .45 ACP revos, but in fact, I own 3: a 1917 S&W, 25-2, and 625 PC. I love being able to run the 625 in IDPA/USPSA and carry it in hog country loaded with heavy cast boolits in Auto Rim brass. I’ll probably add another once the current insanity has subsided.

Just know what you’re getting in to. Moon clips look like the cats meow till you start messing with them.

FWIW, while wrestling with the over-long ammo I described above, I discovered headspace on the 25-2 is a good bit tighter than the 625. Loaded moons that would drag just a little in the 625 wouldn’t even close in the 25-2.

I run a CCW demooner. Pops two at a time. I haven’t yet found a need for a mooning tool, just lay the ammo on a hard surface and press down.

[Dale53]

I have been a fan of the .45 ACP Smith revolvers for several years. My current Smith 625-8 JM Special is one of the finest revolvers I have ever owned. Several of my local club members bought the same revolver after they saw how well mine shot. All that I have examined and fired have proper cylinder throats (.4525") and shoot extremly well with our reloads. I also had a 625-6 Model of 1989 with a 5" barrel. It was also top drawer in every way.

One thing to note about the late model Smith .45 ACP's. They changed the headspace spec's. Some of these will not properly fire .45 ACP's without clips. I have had no problems with this as I ALWAYS use clips with my .45 ACP's. I use Ranch Products steel full moon clips, RIMZ polymer clips (no tools needed to load and unload), and .45 Auto Rim brass with excellent results.

FWIW
Dale53

[contender1]

I used to think like many folks,, that 1/2 moons or moon clips were troublesome & outdated etc. Then I stumbled upon a Ruger Speed-Six in 9mm,, that uses 1/2 moons. Ok,, not too bad,, but still a bit slow. Then along came a S&W 25-2,, in 45 acp. Ok,, the price was quite good, and it found a home. But I didn't get into it much. But I got a bunch of Ranch moons,, and made a re-mooning tool out of a golf club handle. I also bought a mooning tool,, to make life easier. Hmm,,, it wasn't as bad as I thought. Talking to Jerry M. (Yes,, THAT Jerry) we discussed moon clipped revolvers. and being smart enough to listen to THE master,, I found myself enjoying a moon clipped gun. Then, along came a S&W 646,, in .40S&W cal. Since I shoot USPSA,, I decided to try getting a bit more serious about revolver category. Next,, I won a Ruger LCR in 9mm,, that takes moons,, and I have purchased a 10mm Ruger GP-100.

For speed reloading,, a moon clipped revolver is the fastest. This may not be an issue for those who don't compete in competition,, but it matters to those of us who do. Having plenty of moons,,, you can easily load them all up ahead of a match,, & de-moon them later at home.
I have learned to fully appreciate the differences in using a moon clipped revolver,, and I have managed to get some 45 auto-rim cases,, just for fun. But the 45 doesn't get the workout that the .40 cal stuff does nowadays. And,, I see a Ruger 8 shot 9mm revolver in my future too!
While not for everybody,, no reason to hate ANY firearm. Remember,, anti-gunners hate,, gun folks have preferences!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Here's my favorite. It's a newer one, but pre-hole. Shoots everything I've tried very well. I usually load it with AR rounds, but carry a couple of full moons as speed loaders. Also, they're better than loose rounds in the pocket.


Some earlier ones.


Some unusual ones.

[AlaskaMike]

A good friend of mine carried a 4" model 625 as a patrol officer for many years here in Alaska. Instead of speed loaders she carried full moon clips in the pouches on her duty belt. Of course that was back when the issue weapon was either a S&W model 13 or a model 10 if you couldn't qualify with the model 13.

[Jkrem]

I just added 3 S&W Model 1917 full moon clips to the Pay it Forward Swap box that are free for the taking.

If anyone wants to trade for some extra model 1917 parts, drop me a pm.
Attachment 265849

[samari46]

My only 45acp revolver is a S&W from the Brazilian contract of 1937. I use the RIMZ polymer 6 round moon clips. These do not need any tolls or physical gyrations to either load on unload. As they make these particular moon clips for different 45 acp revolvers for mine there is a bump where the center of the extractor star belongs. You just file off the bump on each side test fit and away you go. According to the mfg'r they should last for about 300 or so rounds. I bought about 50 of them so should do me for a while. Frank

[Norske]

My 1955 S&W 45ACP Target revolver works well with full moon clips. Pressing cartridges into the clips is easy until it's the last one, then my arthritic hands require me to use a Leatherman pliers. Removing the cases is easy with the Leatherman flat screwdriver blade. I have 8 full moon clips, so I can shoot almost a box of cartridges without messing about at the range.
Look for a plastic full moon clip, which are much easier to load/empty. I don't have any, but have seen them at our range. I can't help with any questions about long-term their durability.