DIY Reloading Dies from 7/8 14 Bolts

[1hole]

.... If you want sloppy ,put a Lee press together without the O rings that centre the dies ,and make everything seem shipshape ......sloppy isnt the word ......and Lee threads are seldom at 50%,less ,I suspect......

Sloppy really isn't the word. That "O" ring isn't there to "center the dies", it makes a soft but secure fit to the press so that, centered or not, the dies have enough room to precisely self align with the cases. And it works very well too.

At 50% (or even less) thread engagement for a die-to-press fit, the joint strength is far greater than what's needed to resize and reload brass cases. Some dies have cut threads, some have rolled threads and that's good because because both thread types work. The "best" (meaning the most accurate and most costly) dies have no threads at all because they're hand dies.

[EDG]

You can claim that it works (the o ring sloppy thread alignment theory) but until you provide data proving it works better than other equipment all you have are theories and marketing claims. The truth is there has been no great increase in accuracy attributed to Lee or Lee equipment. Top accuracy competitors use other equipment or custom equipment. If you want to buy Lee's claims you can but they are only claims.
Before Lee began marketing reloading dies L. E. (Sam) Wilson was already making the reloading tools that dominated short range bench rest.
Today Wilson still makes the most used tools in short range BR and those tools for the most part do not have 7/8-14 threads nor do they use a conventional press. Investigation of Lee's advantages show that they are mostly cost advantages and it appears the run of the mill Lee customer is interested in the lowest cost tools and not accuracy.

Sloppy really isn't the word. That "O" ring isn't there to "center the dies", it makes a soft but secure fit to the press so that, centered or not, the dies have enough room to precisely self align with the cases. And it works very well too.

At 50% (or even less) thread engagement for a die-to-press fit, the joint strength is far greater than what's needed to resize and reload brass cases. Some dies have cut threads, some have rolled threads and that's good because because both thread types work. The "best" (meaning the most accurate and most costly) dies have no threads at all because they're hand dies.

[Traffer]

Lot's of interesting conversation going on here. So I will chime in.
About the "Sloppy thread" observation on Lee Dies... Indeed, this allows them to self center. Most of the Lee systems of dies don't really need self centering dies. My dies benefit by the slop=self centering. It is a cost thing but when you consider the strength reduction is not causing any harm at all, it is a fine way to mitigate a few difficulties very inexpensively. Also there is an extremely expensive die company (don't even know if they survived) I read about 3 years ago that touted their "floating die system" Same concept only designed and manufactured in for considerable cost. So, for me, bottom line is, in the case of Lee Dies, Slop=benefit AND lowers cost of production.
Concerning the post by EDG in #19 : [" The purpose for using a standard off the shelf raw material is for speed, convenience and economy.
If I wanted to shop for some specific best of all worlds alloy I would pick a nice piece of tool steel and single point thread it before I completed the heat treating and final polishing."]
The reason I use bolts is indeed for ECONOMY. Consider that my machine shop consists of a 7x10 mini lathe on a cart along with another cart with a vise and drill press on it in my apartment. With no other shop or garage... the hottest torch I have is a little map gas no oxy torch. No forge or kiln, No place even to build a good fire for heat treating, Nobody around me who would do the heat treating for me for cheap...Just learning how to machine...haven't even tried single point threading yet...
SO, Like most common ordinary Joe's, I am not a machinist with an outfitted shop.
But by using bolts I still can get something usable made.
The reason I use the Bowmalloy bolts is because they are $1.50 apiece. If you price 7/8 14 bolts you may find that a buck and a half apiece is an excellent price. Even if they weren't the fancy aircraft grade 14 ones that I have. I bought them for the price. I mentioned the strength and hardness because there was a discussion about grade 8 bolts being softer in the middle (which they are).
One side note for anyone thinking about using grade 8 or 14 bolts is this:
Because they are rolled and heat treated, The hardness is not consistent throughout. Meaning you will hit (hard and soft spots) as you machine. That is a problem. When you do a final polish the hard spots cause slight "bad spots" because they don't polish down as easily. Leaving a shallow void around them. This CAN cause holes to be eccentric or wavy,. My solution is to use the exact size reamer and finish ream them to size then only give a very VERY light polish.
No using bolts is certainly NOT ideal. But they allow a guy without a machine shop to make some rudimentary dies...like push through sizers.
I guess I should have made that more clear in the veejo. (video)

[Scrounge]

Lot's of interesting conversation going on here. So I will chime in.
About the "Sloppy thread" observation on Lee Dies... Indeed, this allows them to self center. Most of the Lee systems of dies don't really need self centering dies. My dies benefit by the slop=self centering. It is a cost thing but when you consider the strength reduction is not causing any harm at all, it is a fine way to mitigate a few difficulties very inexpensively. Also there is an extremely expensive die company (don't even know if they survived) I read about 3 years ago that touted their "floating die system" Same concept only designed and manufactured in for considerable cost. So, for me, bottom line is, in the case of Lee Dies, Slop=benefit AND lowers cost of production.
Concerning the post by EDG in #19 : [" The purpose for using a standard off the shelf raw material is for speed, convenience and economy.
If I wanted to shop for some specific best of all worlds alloy I would pick a nice piece of tool steel and single point thread it before I completed the heat treating and final polishing."]
The reason I use bolts is indeed for ECONOMY. Consider that my machine shop consists of a 7x10 mini lathe on a cart along with another cart with a vise and drill press on it in my apartment. With no other shop or garage... the hottest torch I have is a little map gas no oxy torch. No forge or kiln, No place even to build a good fire for heat treating, Nobody around me who would do the heat treating for me for cheap...Just learning how to machine...haven't even tried single point threading yet...
SO, Like most common ordinary Joe's, I am not a machinist with an outfitted shop.
But by using bolts I still can get something usable made.
The reason I use the Bowmalloy bolts is because they are $1.50 apiece. If you price 7/8 14 bolts you may find that a buck and a half apiece is an excellent price. Even if they weren't the fancy aircraft grade 14 ones that I have. I bought them for the price. I mentioned the strength and hardness because there was a discussion about grade 8 bolts being softer in the middle (which they are).
One side note for anyone thinking about using grade 8 or 14 bolts is this:
Because they are rolled and heat treated, The hardness is not consistent throughout. Meaning you will hit (hard and soft spots) as you machine. That is a problem. When you do a final polish the hard spots cause slight "bad spots" because they don't polish down as easily. Leaving a shallow void around them. This CAN cause holes to be eccentric or wavy,. My solution is to use the exact size reamer and finish ream them to size then only give a very VERY light polish.
No using bolts is certainly NOT ideal. But they allow a guy without a machine shop to make some rudimentary dies...like push through sizers.
I guess I should have made that more clear in the veejo. (video)

I can understand that! I've been machining a little longer. Bought my HF 7x10 in 2008, and was puttering along, when and as I could. Didn't get nearly as far as I thought I should, and was griping about it to SWMBO one day in December 2014, and she said I should take a class. The last time I didn't listen to her I spent 10 years, $100K in student loans, all my GI Bill, and three years teaching before crashing that career. So I looked for a class, and found one and enrolled. Started in February 2015, full time, and working full time. After a few months, switched to part time. 2 nights a week, when and as I can. Been going since then, until interrupted by Covid-19. We're going back to class the 17th. Learned a bunch! One of the things I learned was NEVER leave the chuck key in the chuck! Saw that in your video. You should fix that habit before you learn why it's a bad, BAD!!! habit! Got a couple of ideas for you that may help with the heat treating. You can buy fire bricks, and lay them out flat, build a small oven with them, and generally arrange them so you can do some simple heat treating. If you use O-1 tool steel, you can quench in a can of old motor oil, vegetable oil, etc., to get your parts hardened. You need a small bench grinder if you don't have one, to sharpen your own tools, though a small belt sander will do it, too. Maybe easier. A set of diamond hones is a good thing for touching up the edges of your cutting tools, I like the EZE-Lap diamond sharpeners from Amazon. Medium, fine, extra-fine set is about $16-17. And you really need to learn to single-point thread on the the lathe. It opens up so many possibilities for you! An ER-32 collet chuck and a set of ER-32 collets is really handy, too. Like this one, but you can make your own, as well. https://www.amazon.com/HFS-Collet-Ch...NrPXRydWU&th=1 though you probably want to buy the ER-32 nut. I've got a little more room than you do, so I've been filling it up. Two more lathes, two small milling machines, a metal shaper, three bandsaws, three drill presses, and I can't hardly walk through the area. I'm spending some of the time I'm not hanging out here trying to put things in order there. 16'x21' enclosed back porch. Pretty well stuffed full. I have those fire bricks, myself. Two kinds of propane torch, and an acetelyne Turbo-Torch. I've built a 3/8" propane burner from the design by Michael Porter, and have the stuff to build some larger ones to run a furnace for melting aluminum. I'm gathering materials to make some .32 Long Colt reloading dies, and swaging dies to make my own brass from .32 S&W brass. Also sizing and lubing dies, and expanders and such for .316 boolits for my 91/30 Mosin Nagant. Been sitting here in my bathrobe long enough, gotta get back to work.

[Traffer]

I can understand that! I've been machining a little longer. Bought my HF 7x10 in 2008, and was puttering along, when and as I could. Didn't get nearly as far as I thought I should, and was griping about it to SWMBO one day in December 2014, and she said I should take a class. The last time I didn't listen to her I spent 10 years, $100K in student loans, all my GI Bill, and three years teaching before crashing that career. So I looked for a class, and found one and enrolled. Started in February 2015, full time, and working full time. After a few months, switched to part time. 2 nights a week, when and as I can. Been going since then, until interrupted by Covid-19. We're going back to class the 17th. Learned a bunch! One of the things I learned was NEVER leave the chuck key in the chuck! Saw that in your video. You should fix that habit before you learn why it's a bad, BAD!!! habit! Got a couple of ideas for you that may help with the heat treating. You can buy fire bricks, and lay them out flat, build a small oven with them, and generally arrange them so you can do some simple heat treating. If you use O-1 tool steel, you can quench in a can of old motor oil, vegetable oil, etc., to get your parts hardened. You need a small bench grinder if you don't have one, to sharpen your own tools, though a small belt sander will do it, too. Maybe easier. A set of diamond hones is a good thing for touching up the edges of your cutting tools, I like the EZE-Lap diamond sharpeners from Amazon. Medium, fine, extra-fine set is about $16-17. And you really need to learn to single-point thread on the the lathe. It opens up so many possibilities for you! An ER-32 collet chuck and a set of ER-32 collets is really handy, too. Like this one, but you can make your own, as well. https://www.amazon.com/HFS-Collet-Ch...NrPXRydWU&th=1 though you probably want to buy the ER-32 nut. I've got a little more room than you do, so I've been filling it up. Two more lathes, two small milling machines, a metal shaper, three bandsaws, three drill presses, and I can't hardly walk through the area. I'm spending some of the time I'm not hanging out here trying to put things in order there. 16'x21' enclosed back porch. Pretty well stuffed full. I have those fire bricks, myself. Two kinds of propane torch, and an acetelyne Turbo-Torch. I've built a 3/8" propane burner from the design by Michael Porter, and have the stuff to build some larger ones to run a furnace for melting aluminum. I'm gathering materials to make some .32 Long Colt reloading dies, and swaging dies to make my own brass from .32 S&W brass. Also sizing and lubing dies, and expanders and such for .316 boolits for my 91/30 Mosin Nagant. Been sitting here in my bathrobe long enough, gotta get back to work.

Wow, thanks for all that very valuable information. Nice to see it laid out like that. I can learn that but a little hear and a little there. Was trying to gather info about heat treating a while back...did source some fire bricks but no place to build. Live in an 82 unit handicap apartment bldg with about 500sq ft. But the collet idea and single point threading...Thanks again for the encouragement.

[Scrounge]

Wow, thanks for all that very valuable information. Nice to see it laid out like that. I can learn that but a little hear and a little there. Was trying to gather info about heat treating a while back...did source some fire bricks but no place to build. Live in an 82 unit handicap apartment bldg with about 500sq ft. But the collet idea and single point threading...Thanks again for the encouragement.

Have you found the old Yahoo Groups that moved to Groups.io? Lot of help and support there. Also, look for a guy whose Youtube username is Mr. Pete222, and check out his videos of using lathes, and many other tools. Guy used to be a HS shop teacher. Use of language is quite moderate, as his grandson is often his shop helper. Sure wish my grandpa knew how to use a lathe! https://groups.io/groups has a 7x12mini-lathe group, and several brand-name lathe groups, among many other things of interest in metalworking and other hobbies. Might also check out https://gadgetbuilder.com/ John Moran, the owner of that site is a moderator the 7x12 group. Frank Hoose's Mini-lathe.com is a great site, too. http://www.mini-lathe.com/Home/index.htm They helped me a lot, though I found the classroom much more useful. This is the program I'm in: https://www.francistuttle.edu/progra...logy-machining For the manual machining portion, it's supposed to last about 8-10 months full time, or a couple of years part time. If you take the full course, it's longer, but you come out a CNC machinist, as well as familiar with manual machining. You can work on your own projects, too. That would be one of the reasons I'm not quite done yet. Health issues for both SWMBO and me are some of the others. I've made threaded spindle stubs for both my Atlas TH42 & South Bend Heavy 10L, and I'm just barely started at single point threading. It's magic!

[jmorris]

As for “floating die” that’s not new. The Co-ax is a floating die, there are no die threads at all in the press, none.

David Tubb has written about his floating die setup he has won with. John Whidden copied the idea and has used it with success as well as offering the setup to others.

That said, the tapered threads, both male and female will cause the die, under load, to center in the taper vs “free float” or self align, so not sure what you are getting with the o-ring.

[1hole]

You can claim that it works (the o ring sloppy thread alignment theory) but until you provide data proving it works better than other equipment all you have are theories and marketing claims. The truth is there has been no great increase in accuracy attributed to Lee or Lee equipment.

Not sure what you're driving at. I haven't claimed a great (or even small) automatic increase in accuracy will come from using Lee equipment. What I'm saying is that what you call "slop" isn't. It means Lee's bit of die looseness isn't a detriment to accuracy because it obviously makes die-to-press alignment less critical. Grasping that as a valid design criteria doesn't mean other dies can't provide accuracy and it needs no great amount of research to understand!

Before Lee began marketing reloading dies L. E. (Sam) Wilson was already making the reloading tools that dominated short range bench rest.

Well ... yeah ... but we aren't focusing on Wilson's hand dies! Since you raise the issue, can we throw in (threaded) dies from Lyman, Pacific, Hollywood, Herter's, RCBS, Bonanza, White, et al, that also preceded Lee in the same historical time frame?

Today Wilson still makes the most used tools in short range BR and those tools for the most part do not have 7/8-14 threads nor do they use a conventional press.

Yeah. And you make my point. Nothing can be "sloppier" than hand dies but the cases invariably self align inside the dies, they simply can't do otherwise and no precisely machined and wrench-tightened threaded dies can improve on that.

Investigation of Lee's advantages show that they are mostly cost advantages and it appears the run of the mill Lee customer is interested in the lowest cost tools and not accuracy.

It wouldn't take much investigation to show that! But we've both noted that those seeking absolute accuracy don't use anyone's threaded dies so your implied argument against Lee falls flat.

Thing is, ammo is made inside the dies. Pretty die exteriors don't add or detract anything to the end effects.

Anyone who investigates the average accuracy potential of common threaded dies is going to find that there is no average accuracy advantage from any brand. If there was any automatic advantage to any brand the maker would be yelling it from every street corner!

Bottom line, no matter our favorite brands, we should realize accuracy doesn't easily come just from using tools of any color or price.

Dies are individuals; they ALL vary by the same SAAMI specs. Thus, the average quality of ammo made from any average dies is going to depend on the specific reloading skills - and load development skills - of the loader, not his brand of tools.

That means the frugal guy using threaded equipment (i.e., not Wilson hand dies and arbor presses) will suffer no automatic loss of accuracy from using any common brand of conventional tools ... including Lee's. ???

[john.k]

I did not criticise Lee s strategy of using O rings ......a clever way to use threads with very considerable clearance and therefore ,a breeze to screw up and unscrew.........I have no doubt if anyone here has dies,adapters and press threaded to near perfection as far as thread fit goes,they would complain endlessly about how difficult and tiresome it was to have dies that could not be spun in and out with a flick of the fingers......Very closely fitted threads develop a sort of "chattering" that impedes free motion ,unless they are ideally clean and freely lubricated.

[john.k]

I do not agrre with the proposition that a press needs to be "accurately made" when you fit a shellholder into a loose groove in the press ram ,and case rim into a loose groove in an opensided shellholder ,the concentricity of press ram and die doesnt mean very much .....whats more important is that the base of the case be kept square with the axis of the chamber ......always assuming the rifle boltface is in fact square with the axis of the bore ......quite often not....hence "accurizing".....As mentioned ,once the case is forced into a full length die ,it will assume the shape of the die ......however ,the average bullet seating setup allows the bullet to freely enter the neck ,and if the neck is harder one side ,then the bullet may seat offcentre ,or even crooked .....The simplest cure here is to size the case neck ID exactly to bullet dia ....and then crimp for a secure hold ,rather than seating a bullet to expand the neck ID......The Wilson dies hold every component rigidly ,assuming the case is a perfect fit in the seating die,the bullet is held inline and centred......at much greater cost than your average $30 dieset.

[Chill Wills]

Hey Traffer, Question? Do you have the ability to cut threads on your mini lathe? Is there a lead screw?

Having any kind of lathe sure beats doing work in a drill press and files as I remember you were describing some years ago.

If you have a lead screw and a powder feed lathe you can do a lot with it even if you have to take very light cuts to maintain accuracy. If you are not trying to make money with it, slow light cuts are great. That lathe is fine. No hurry.
It looks like you are enjoying learning how to make useful things related to loading ammo.

[rbuck351]

The HF 7x10 does have a power lead screw and a gear set for different threads but when you single point threads on stock in the 7/8" area you have to make a lot of very fine cuts to keep from chattering. I threaded one 7/8" rod to 7/8x14 and decided it was much easier and a lot faster to use all thread or bolts in 7/8x14 for making boolit sizing dies. I started with a 7x10 and converted it to 7x14 from a kit from Little Machine shop.com. Gained about 6" of work space between chuck and live center. I have since bought an Atlas 10 x 24 but still prefer the 7x14 for a lot of the smaller projects.

[Scrounge]

The HF 7x10 does have a power lead screw and a gear set for different threads but when you single point threads on stock in the 7/8" area you have to make a lot of very fine cuts to keep from chattering. I threaded one 7/8" rod to 7/8x14 and decided it was much easier and a lot faster to use all thread or bolts in 7/8x14 for making boolit sizing dies. I started with a 7x10 and converted it to 7x14 from a kit from Little Machine shop.com. Gained about 6" of work space between chuck and live center. I have since bought an Atlas 10 x 24 but still prefer the 7x14 for a lot of the smaller projects.

No arguements from me! Though I haven't stretched my 7x10. I am kind of looking for a 54" bed for my TH42, as that would get me 36" between centers, though for for most of what I've been doing, it's fine as is. I have a lot of work to do on the South Bend Heavy 10L. It's a 10x36, IIRC. 4.5' bed tool room lathe built in 1941.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Guys; first, the Chrome Moly steel that G8 bolts are made from machines like ship! I have made quite a few adapters and other doodads from those bolts and they don't generally come out pretty. The only way I have seen Cro-Moly produce a nice finish is to run it at Warp Speed and use Diamond Tools and a High Lubricity Coolant. You can't do this,,, but that's how it's done.

You are better off just using 12L14 as it machines very nicely, is easy to machine, and you will never wear the parts out in your lifetime.

It should be noted: That most dies are made from 12L14 and then case hardened.

The L in 12L14 means "Lead" which it included to make it free machining. Every round part on my Jeep that is made of steel is made from 12L14. The tensile strength is slightly above 1018 CRS.

IF you are looking for precision in your home made dies you need to cut the external Threads and NOT remove the die from the chuck. You will never get it back in the chuck the same way again. This is the whole purpose of a Turret Lathe you do multiple operations on a part without removing it from the chuck. This insures that all your operations will be concentric to the spindle.

This doesn't mean all your operations will be concentric to the OD of your part, as it might be in the chuck Cockeyed. That is why you turn the OD of the part first and do the external operations after that. That way all your operations will be concentric to the OD or ID and Spindle.

You do all of the operations on the business end of the die in one chucking. The rest don't really matter.

Randy

[RichardB]

If you are needing die bodies to work with, I have a 5 gallon bucket of die bodies that are unusable in their current state. Deep scratches, rust pits and such. I use then when making a specialty die for case forming, neck sizing and bullet sizing push thru dies. I anneal them do the mods needed and then reharden if they will see a lot of use. Otherwise I use as completed without hardening. I can't offer them to you on this forum so if you would like some contact me.

RichardB

[Traffer]

If you are needing die bodies to work with, I have a 5 gallon bucket of die bodies that are unusable in their current state. Deep scratches, rust pits and such. I use then when making a specialty die for case forming, neck sizing and bullet sizing push thru dies. I anneal them do the mods needed and then reharden if they will see a lot of use. Otherwise I use as completed without hardening. I can't offer them to you on this forum so if you would like some contact me.

RichardB

Thanks for mentioning that. A while back I asked the general population here if they had any scrap dies that I would "play with" to modify. I used a few of them for various things but could not anneal them and those babies are hard...considerably harder than a grade 8 bolt. So for a guy like me of limited use,

[jmorris]

Thanks for mentioning that. A while back I asked the general population here if they had any scrap dies that I would "play with" to modify. I used a few of them for various things but could not anneal them and those babies are hard..,,

If they were still hard, you didn’t anneal them. An oxy/act torch will anneal any die, as will a MAPP gas torch or even a campfire or many propane grills. If you can make them glow red, you can cut them once they cool.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have one of those mini lathes. 10x14. It’s great for small stuff, but I wouldn’t want to try to use it on hardened steel. It’s just not ridged enough.

[country gent]

several points to consider here is instead of insert tooling try cemented carbide bits and sharpen them to what you need then hone the edge sharp with a fine diamond stone. Light cuts and slower feeds these little lathes arnt very solid. I have made needed items from allen head cap screw it is hard but machines well you will want carbide tooling for it.
The easiest way to anneal die bodies or bolts is find an old small hibachi grill. Start a charcoal fire in ti and place dies in then cover with several inches of briquettes. Keep it burning for 5-6 hours If you really want it soft put a shop vac blowing on the fire for an hour or 2. then keep hot and let slowly burn out over night. The shop vac blower will really eat up the charcoal though. But in the morning they should be dead soft. If the dies are some of the plated one you cant anneal that.
The lead in 12l17 is added as a machining lubricant and will machine very nice with super finishes. It can be case hardened if needed. Most off the shelf bolts and threaded rod is pretty cheap steel

[Traffer]

Thanks guys. I just might try the hibachi grill technique with a leaf blower. I have used leaf blowers to burn wet and rotting wood before. Makes a huge difference. Just like a forge.