RotoMetals2WidenersRepackboxReloading Everything
Load DataPBcastcoInline FabricationLee Precision
MidSouth Shooters Supply Titan Reloading
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: Lee Collet Factory Crimp Die and 44-40

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,720

    Lee Collet Factory Crimp Die and 44-40

    I just posted a plea for help regrading this die with 44-40 rounds in the "Reloading Equipment" section of the forum. Since there may be more 44 WCF experience in this area than there, I am posting this notice. Beginning to wish I had spend my money on a Profile Crimp Die instead.

    prs

  2. #2
    "Pinching" is somewhat normal BUT the Lee die is a bit harsh. I think it was 1980's factory loads used such a design crimp and I have hated them ever since. And hated the LFCD too. I switched to the Redding Profile die a while back and never looked back.

    The permanent "ring" will not go away and the "bumps" should be okay unless you use full power loads....then they may split.

    Here is a bit of reading: https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...file-crimp-die

    There is really no way to avoid the Lee Bumps. They are worse if you use .429-.430 bullets.
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 07-31-2020 at 08:58 PM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    10,153
    In my experience the Lee Factory Crimp Die in .44-40 reduces bullet diameter inside Starline brass to .428", which is too small for best results in modern rifles and revolvers produced to .44 Magnum barrel dimensions. The Lee die works best in .44-40 firearms which require use of smaller bullet diameters.

    My Redding Profile Crimp die reduces bullet diameter when using Starline brass to .4305", in W-W cases to .431" and in old Rem-UMC balloon-head cases to .432", much better for modern .44-40 firearms.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    In my experience the Lee Factory Crimp Die in .44-40 reduces bullet diameter inside Starline brass to .428", which is too small for best results in modern rifles and revolvers produced to .44 Magnum barrel dimensions. The Lee die works best in .44-40 firearms which require use of smaller bullet diameters.

    My Redding Profile Crimp die reduces bullet diameter when using Starline brass to .4305", in W-W cases to .431" and in old Rem-UMC balloon-head cases to .432", much better for modern .44-40 firearms.
    Excellent explanation Outpost75, thanks!!

  5. #5
    Attachment 265551 This is a Winchester cartridge from a 1980's Orange and red banner ammo box. Notice them crimp looks almost identical to the LFCD. Just where the lighted area is on the crimp you will notice a "bump" as if (maybe they did) use a collet type crimp tool.


    Attachment 265552 This is a crimp from a Redding Profile die on both a lead bullet (.428") without a crimp groove and a Winchester JSP bullet (.4255") with a cannular crimp groove.


    Attachment 265553 Cartridge where an LFCD was used on a .427" bullet which had also been used many time previously. Eventually the case mouth split at the damaged "bump" area


    Attachment 265554 Here is a cartridge were a non-44/40 profile bullet was used. It is a 44-40 diameter and a popular 44-40 bullet but NOT a 44-40 profile bullet. It can be seen why a Redding Profile crimp die can not be used.


    https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,720
    Savvy Jack and Outpost75; I thank you both very kindly. I sent an inquiry to Lee and promptly received a reply. The reply basically said that this is just how it is. My bullets were initially sized .429" and more recently I went to .430". The '92 rifle is shooting very well off hand with no leading. I will check form and function of some other crimp dies I have next rainy day.

    prs

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by prs View Post
    Savvy Jack and Outpost75; I thank you both very kindly. I sent an inquiry to Lee and promptly received a reply. The reply basically said that this is just how it is. My bullets were initially sized .429" and more recently I went to .430". The '92 rifle is shooting very well off hand with no leading. I will check form and function of some other crimp dies I have next rainy day.

    prs
    Hope it works out for ya, gotta love the 44-40!

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    10,564
    Lots of factory ammo is 'collet' crimped but unlike the Lee, they just press inward. The Lee uses downward force and lateral. When the Lee pushes the mouth into the crimp groove, what you call bumps are actually NOT indented and yes, stress the brass to eventual failure/splitting. The groove causes the failure, not the FCD.
    Whatever!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    The groove causes the failure, not the FCD.
    In all fairness, true!

    The LFCD is not really used correctly by most handloaders. Lee fails to inform the proper use, intended bullet diameter & design, etc.....but it "works good enough" by most that don't really know any better.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master elmacgyver0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,958
    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    In all fairness, true!

    The LFCD is not really used correctly by most handloaders. Lee fails to inform the proper use, intended bullet diameter & design, etc.....but it "works good enough" by most that don't really know any better.
    Incomplete vague instruction manuals are pretty much the norm these days.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    6,314
    When using the FC die, it properly crimped when your finger is slid down to the case mouth and you feel no ridge ... too much is over crimp and a ridge = not enough. Same feeling for crimps in the crimp groove - On the band and on the ogive of the nose
    Last edited by John Boy; 08-09-2020 at 11:17 AM.
    Regards
    John

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    755
    Y’all help me out, here, I use the FCD on .41 mag...
    Is the FCD supposed to curl the case mouth slightly inward, barely biting into the crimp groove/boolit, or adjusted to look like a taper crimp? The above fingernail test indicates the former.
    What is the consensus regarding proper adjustment of the FCD? What is the proper way to adjust the FCD?
    R/Griff

  13. #13
    Here are a few older WW JSP cartridges that show a factory collet crimp. The lead bullet cartridges are newer Winchester cowboy loads.
    NOTE the neck length of the cowboy loads
    Attachment 265961
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 08-09-2020 at 10:21 AM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,289
    That is one heck of a crimp Savvy Jack!!!!!

    Entirely to much as evidenced by the case brass being swaged in between the collet fingers. I use several different Lee collet FCDs [though not for the 44-40] to crimp case mouths into crimp grooves on cast bullets. Simply backing the die out so the collet just pinches in the case mouth can give a very nice crimp similar to a roll crimp.

    As to Lee FCD dies for handgun cartridges I use the 9mm and 45 ACP ones with complete satisfaction. But then, I use .357 and .451/2 sized bullets.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    That is one heck of a crimp Savvy Jack!!!!!

    Entirely to much as evidenced by the case brass being swaged in between the collet fingers. I use several different Lee collet FCDs [though not for the 44-40] to crimp case mouths into crimp grooves on cast bullets. Simply backing the die out so the collet just pinches in the case mouth can give a very nice crimp similar to a roll crimp.

    As to Lee FCD dies for handgun cartridges I use the 9mm and 45 ACP ones with complete satisfaction. But then, I use .357 and .451/2 sized bullets.
    Those are FACTORY cartridges

    Attachment 265969Attachment 265967Attachment 265968
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 08-09-2020 at 11:54 AM.

  16. #16
    Vendor Sponsor

    DougGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    just above Raleigh North Carolina
    Posts
    7,387
    I modify these Lee collet crimp dies. Mostly to narrow the crimp band, I mean why would you want to crimp the top .060" of the case plus another .100" of the boolit in front of the case? Stupid. I make the crimp band about .050" wide total, then I shorten the collet and bring the top of the crimp band down to just a hair below the case mouth. I see no reason why I could not modify the actual crimped diameter of the collet so that it only closes to a certain diameter which would alleviate the pinched cases and also eliminate swaging the boolit down inside the case. Yes some swaging will occur, but if there is a crimp groove where the crimp band applies it would be negligible, barely noticed.

    Here is a thread detailing the mods I like to do to mine, have done quite a few for forum members here and everyone seems to be happy with the modded die and the crimps it produces. This thread only deals with narrowing the crimp band and bringing it down onto the case mouth, but it would be easy enough to hone out the inside of it if I had a dozen or so assembled dummies with the .430" boolit or whichever boolit the shooter needed loaded to gauge the progress with. Overall this really is a superior crimp, WHEN it is tailored more closely to the job it needs to do.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2239315

    As a side note, I was watching a movie called "Serena" set in the Smoky Mountains of North Carolina in 1929, the movie was filmed in Prague from all I could tell, the armorer had a slovak name, but the central character in the movie was a rich timber baron, hunting with a drop dead GORGEOUS 1873 Winchester rifle, silver or nickel plated, fully engraved, beautiful octagon barrel, some extremely choice furniture, and they showed a close up of the rifle being loaded through the loading gate, of course it was plain to see it was 44WCF and I could see the band around the bottleneck, but also the crimp as well and it looked very similar to a collet style crimp.

    Its ironic that I am answering a thread concerning the 44WCF cartridge today, after seeing that very detailed and VERY BEAUTIFUL rifle on the tv just a few hours ago. I have to give credit where credit is due, they NAILED the rifle for period correct in every way, it was truly a magnificent example of what a wealthy man's levergun would have been in those days.

    The movie is on Roku, free to watch, pretty stupid anti-climatic ending but still a good watch if you are a fan of these very ornate Winnies, the rifle was featured prominently in several scenes.
    Last edited by DougGuy; 08-09-2020 at 12:14 PM.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  17. #17
    I do remember that thread Guy but forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder.

    I prefer the Redding Crimp Die though, no mods needed for the 44-40's light crimp on both lead and jacket bullets with the original 44-40 O'give profile.

    Attachment 265970

    Attachment 265971

    Attachment 265972
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 08-09-2020 at 12:49 PM.

  18. #18
    Vendor Sponsor

    DougGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    just above Raleigh North Carolina
    Posts
    7,387
    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Lots of factory ammo is 'collet' crimped but unlike the Lee, they just press inward. The Lee uses downward force and lateral. When the Lee pushes the mouth into the crimp groove, what you call bumps are actually NOT indented and yes, stress the brass to eventual failure/splitting. The groove causes the failure, not the FCD.
    The collet style Lee FCD doesn't push downward at all, it only closes the collet from the side. The collet bottoms out on the shell holder before any crimp is applied, there is no further downward motion once the collet comes into contact with the shell holder.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  19. #19
    The following photo is a comparison between the Redding Profile Crimp and the Lee Factory Crimp.
    The bullet is the Accurate Molds 43-214A design I submitted. There is no crimp groove. See post #17 for the bare bullet profile.

    The LFCD is used in this comparison to where the collet is fully closed with this .428" diameter bullet.

    Attachment 265984


    The following photo shows the case split at the point of the bump bulge. The excessive bump bulge is caused when using larger .429/.430 bullets and the collet not fully closing before the full crimp is applied allowing the brass to be squeezed between the collet slits.. Although a CAS shooter should not experience case splits with light loads, normal loads will eventually cause splits in this weak area produced by the LFCD.

    The 44-40 does not need excessive crimps like the 357 Mag, 44 Mag etc and the handloader could back off the crimp a little. Always test a magtube-full of cartridges before using to make sure your crimp is enough to prevent "telescoping" of the bullet down into the case when using in rifles. https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...file-crimp-die

    Attachment 265986
    Lee FCD (split case)

    To clarify, the Redding Profile Crimp die was used in this last photo. The damage was done previously by use of the LFCD and shows the damage remains forever on the case.
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 08-09-2020 at 02:58 PM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,289
    Yes, factories certainly can and do over crimp too. Just haven't found it necessary.......so far.......

    I like Doug's modification......
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check