Mystery black powder substitute

[fishingsetx]

I inherited a bunch of 45 LC loads from my dad when he passed away back in December and my brother had some issues with some of them. We think they were double charged and the first round he fired destroyed a nice reproduction revolver. I figured I better pull the bullets and reload them to be sure the ones I have arent double charged. I pulled a couple rounds from each box and 2 of the boxes had some form of what I can only think is a black powder substitute. I just cant figure out what it is exactly. It is the color of light sand and has a consistency somewhere just courser than flour. It was compressed so I had to break it up with a piece of wire to get it out of the cartridge. At first, I thought it may be some kind of filler, but that is all that was inside and when lit, it flashes off like black powder and produces a ton of smoke. Any idea on what it could possibly be?

The third box I have from him is loaded with 8.6 gr of flake smokeless powder. I know the box my brother had was labeled as 10.5 gr of unique so it is possible that may be what I have as well. I plan on just dumping it and reloading them with new powder anyway, but I was just curious on what kind of powder the white stuff could be.

I'm attaching pics for reference.

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[Markopolo]

rocket fuel? sugar and potassium nitrate ? no idea.... did your dad leave any of his notebooks?

[Lead pot]

Looks like a filler compressed over black powder.
Those larger round granules like maybe black powder.
If that is a filler the lube might have contaminated the filler changing the composition.

[fishingsetx]

He did talk about using filler before and I thought filler at first also, but there was no layer of black powder at the bottom (consistent top to bottom) and the "filler" burned just like black powder (flashed and smoked). Almost like black powder mixed with some kind of filler, but it burns much too quickly for that.

Sugar/kno3 is possible, but I've made a couple batches of that and the color isnt the same. Also, they tend to burn a little different as well.

As for lube, one box was lubed lead (pic of the loose powder) and the other was copper jacketed hollowpoints (pic of the compressed powder in the case). Both looked the same.

Unfortunately, he didnt keep notebooks. I'm going to ask a couple of his reloading buddies if I can find their contact info, but my guess is they probably wont know either. He did have one buddy who is pretty well versed in different compositions of BP and makes it with some interesting ingredients so if anyone would have an idea, he might.

I'm pretty familiar with most black powder and substitutes and this one has me stumped so I figured I'd ask around. The color is wrong, the grain size is wrong (almost like green mill and seemed finer than ffffg), the weight is wrong, etc. The only thing that seemed right for BP/substitutes is the way it burns. It was actually much easier to ignite than standard black powder.

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[indian joe]

My Dad passed away last year - he had loaded hundreds of thousands of shotshells over his life - but sorting through his stuff after he went - I would not have trusted anything he loaded in the last three years ----its called old age - they still sound like they know what they are doing and everything looks ok but the glitches are there - the first thing oldies lose is their patience, everything has to happen NOW! Impatience and glitches dont play well together in the loading room. I spent countless hours dismembering loaded shotshells - part charged with shot, poor crimps, different powders in the same packet, boxes of old empty hulls with a few live ones in the bottom.

In his 91st year I took this bloke to the southern zone trap championships and he shot a respectable score in a 50 target double barrel event - proly pulled the trigger on 75 rounds in that hour or so, he lived on his own until the last 6 months and pulled the pin just a little over 95 - goin to a better place.........................

[john.k]

Something we made as teens was sugar (or flour) and potassium bromate......this stuff seemed like a substitute ,but we managed to blow up a bit of heavy wall ammonia pipe/cannon with it.....so it was clearly more energetic than black.......Also the most corrosive residue ever .....And there are some quite dangerous compounds that were easily made ,until recent bans on chemicals and precursors.

[yeahbub]

Wow! I’ve heard it said to never shoot someone else’s anonymous handloads. I have used other people’s handloads, but the one who made them was standing next to me and they were the subject of some discussion beforehand.

The photo is too small for a lot of detail, but I suspect it may possibly be restored. The top strap appears intact, so, it can be magnafluxed or xrayed to see if there are cracks. If there are no cracks, the top strap could be massaged back into position, the cylinder replaced. The process to accomplish this is the question, which would probably require heat to avoid excessively cold-working the already stressed topstrap. Dimentional distortion to the frame window will be corrected when the topstrap is moved back into position. As long as pressures are kept to BP levels, it’s possible it could be returned to service. This idea needs examination by experts in the business for a proper read on the likelihood of success, but it might be worth a try.

[bedbugbilly]

This post brought back memories of my mother when I was a kid . . . . "OMG!!! Stop that!!! You're going to blow your fingers off!!!!!

Interesting post and I wonder if you will ever find out what the mixture is in those casings.

A good reminder that if you don't load 'em yourself . . . pull 'em and dump 'em.

I have had folks give me "reloads" from time to time - from estates, garage sales, etc. and I always pull and dump regardless of what they are labeled . . . . you just never know. I had some "supposedly" 38 special BP reloads given to me a couple of years back - loaded but the sifter's father who was a good reloader and who was very knowledgeable on the subject. I pulled a couple of them down and much to my surprise - they were not compressed loads of BP but compressed loads of Red Dot - getting the powder out of the casings and on to a white sheet of paper - the red dots were clearly there. I pulled them down and dumped 'em all. The fellow who gave them to me wa a friend and I talked with him later about what I had discovered. He explained that his father had failed rapidly in his health - hadn't been good enough to shoot but still puttered with his reloading. Obviously he was not mentally capable of doing the reloading - and that's not a criticism by ay means as we will all be there someday. He just was no longer able to fully comprehend what he was doing and made a mistake - it happens.

I wonder if there is anything in your Dad's reloading gear/supplies that might give you a clue to what the mixture in the casings are?: If he had a supply of powders and you boys have it, I'd be double checking he contents of the containers just to be on the safe side.

[Dapaki]

For this reason, I dont buy primers, powder or loaded ammo outside of a store. Brass and bullets, sure, too easy to get a jug of 'cast off' powder that has been handed around for a few years.

[john.k]

Yeah ,BBB is right ..."Aw can I just stop when my eyebrows are singed".......However ,if reloads are being sold for a few bucks ,or even free,then I certainly pull the bullets and use them .I will admit to reusing the powder too, in black powder for the 5% smokeless that makes for much cleaner burning .Doesnt seem to matter what kind of smokeless it is,not enough to make any difference in pressure.

[fishingsetx]

This post brought back memories of my mother when I was a kid . . . . "OMG!!! Stop that!!! You're going to blow your fingers off!!!!!

Interesting post and I wonder if you will ever find out what the mixture is in those casings.

A good reminder that if you don't load 'em yourself . . . pull 'em and dump 'em.

I have had folks give me "reloads" from time to time - from estates, garage sales, etc. and I always pull and dump regardless of what they are labeled . . . . you just never know. I had some "supposedly" 38 special BP reloads given to me a couple of years back - loaded but the sifter's father who was a good reloader and who was very knowledgeable on the subject. I pulled a couple of them down and much to my surprise - they were not compressed loads of BP but compressed loads of Red Dot - getting the powder out of the casings and on to a white sheet of paper - the red dots were clearly there. I pulled them down and dumped 'em all. The fellow who gave them to me wa a friend and I talked with him later about what I had discovered. He explained that his father had failed rapidly in his health - hadn't been good enough to shoot but still puttered with his reloading. Obviously he was not mentally capable of doing the reloading - and that's not a criticism by ay means as we will all be there someday. He just was no longer able to fully comprehend what he was doing and made a mistake - it happens.

I wonder if there is anything in your Dad's reloading gear/supplies that might give you a clue to what the mixture in the casings are?: If he had a supply of powders and you boys have it, I'd be double checking he contents of the containers just to be on the safe side.

This is exactly what I suspect on the blown pistol. My dad had been fighting leukemia from agent orange exposure in Vietnam for 2 or 3 years and its possible these were some of his last reloads, or they could have been reloaded 10 years ago. I've already pulled most of the 160 rounds of 45LC I have and my brother is sending me what he has. That was the only 45 colt he chose (I ended up with a Bisley repro, walker repro and henry big boy in 45 colt). In return, he is getting the 10-12 boxes of 45-70 leverevolution I have because I'm too nervous to fire them from the pietta repro Springfield trap door carbine I recieved.

Yea I'll probably never know what that powder is. I've already pulled and tossed the powder out of 50 rounds that appeared to have 8.7 gr of unique sitting under some 239 gr hollowpoints. Not chancing it with unknown powder!

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[fishingsetx]

Wow! I’ve heard it said to never shoot someone else’s anonymous handloads. I have used other people’s handloads, but the one who made them was standing next to me and they were the subject of some discussion beforehand.

The photo is too small for a lot of detail, but I suspect it may possibly be restored. The top strap appears intact, so, it can be magnafluxed or xrayed to see if there are cracks. If there are no cracks, the top strap could be massaged back into position, the cylinder replaced. The process to accomplish this is the question, which would probably require heat to avoid excessively cold-working the already stressed topstrap. Dimentional distortion to the frame window will be corrected when the topstrap is moved back into position. As long as pressures are kept to BP levels, it’s possible it could be returned to service. This idea needs examination by experts in the business for a proper read on the likelihood of success, but it might be worth a try.

Yea, for one, the top strap is cracked at the back of the cylinder window and two, I doubt he'll bother with it as it would probably cost more than the gun cost new.



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[JSnover]

Shortly before smokeless powder there was pyrocellulose, also known as "white powder" as opposed to the existing Black Powder. It was considered safer than Black because it supposedly would NOT burn unless it was compressed. I've never seen any and I doubt it was available during your dad's lifetime but could he or his friends have tried to re-create some of that?