Saiga 7.62x39 poor accuracy with reloads

[mojomandan]

Hey, guys.

I’m back to reloading after a 5 year hiatus with a question.

I am reloading 7.62x39 for a Saiga “sporter rifle” and an NPAP AK47. Both are zeroed with iron sights and Wolf 123 grain FMJ…by “zeroed” I mean I get groups of 2-3” at 50 yards in and around the bullseye. Best I can do.

Following the Hornady Handbook of Reloading and Hodgdon’s reloading data center site, I reloaded both Lee 160 grain, .312” gas checked boolits (from Lyman #2 alloy) and some Hornady .312” diameter 150 grain soft points.

I started with 20.2 grains of H4198. My results were disappointing after shooting 5 rounds of each type of ammo in each rifle.

With the NPAP, I had 2” groups, 4” high with both types of projectile. Not too bad. But with the Saiga, they were about 6” right and 3” low with larger 4” groups. Moving to 21.5 grains of H4198 produced similar results. I chose not to graduate to my 23 grain loads as I did not want to waste components.

Saiga has a 1:9.44” twist rate (chrome-lined barrel), NPAP 1:10” rate. Both slugged at identical .310” groove diameter. I just don’t know how long each rifle’s freebore area is, or how far each projectile is from where the rifling begins. But, still, I am disappointed especially with the Saiga.

Why would the Saiga be so far off with large groups, while the NPAP was a bit better? I realize I moved from 123 grain to 150-160 grains, but expected better from my Saiga. Plus, most people rave about the Lee .312” cast boolits in their AKs.

Suggestions? Should I conclude my Saiga does not like heavier projectiles?

[Neverhome]

I saw you slugged your barrel but not that you actually measured your cast bullets. Assuming .312 would be a mistake. Confirm.

Also looks like you might be trying to use jacketed data. Your starting load is similar to top end loads from Lyman #4. I’d dial it back. You might be stressing your alloy going that fast in those tight twist barrels. Obviously it may not cycle the action if you dial back enough to get good accuracy but you may get closer to the accuracy you want.

[GhostHawk]

Fit is king, next comes lube and load.

So make sure your cast is bigger than your groove diameter. And is not getting swaged down in the loading process.

I am not a big fan of 4198. Got any 4895 you could try? Or even 3031.

Personally I got my best accuracy with 20 grains of IMR 4895 and a 185 gr gas checked bullet.

Upped bullet size a third so I dropped charge a third and found happiness.YMMV

[Jniedbalski]

I tried the lee .312 -2r 160 gr And it shot good in my 3 sks. I used the load by c Harris on this site., he lists different fast pistole powders for it and they work really good.

[mojomandan]

I saw you slugged your barrel but not that you actually measured your cast bullets. Assuming .312 would be a mistake. Confirm.

Also looks like you might be trying to use jacketed data. Your starting load is similar to top end loads from Lyman #4. I’d dial it back. You might be stressing your alloy going that fast in those tight twist barrels. Obviously it may not cycle the action if you dial back enough to get good accuracy but you may get closer to the accuracy you want.

Yes, I forgot to post that my cast boolits are actually .312" in diameter - confirmed with calipers. I will reduce the charge and see what happens. Unfortunately, this does not explain why jacketed is still far off as well in my Saiga.

Fit is king, next comes lube and load.

So make sure your cast is bigger than your groove diameter. And is not getting swaged down in the loading process.

I am not a big fan of 4198. Got any 4895 you could try? Or even 3031.

Personally I got my best accuracy with 20 grains of IMR 4895 and a 185 gr gas checked bullet.

Upped bullet size a third so I dropped charge a third and found happiness.YMMV

My boolits are .312" diameter at the driving band, and I forgot to mention powder-coated. I do have 4895 and will try that.

I was really hoping to find a load that would work for both rifles and most projectiles. Maybe I am asking for too much.

But I am still at a loss as to why the Hornady jacketed one are so off in my Saiga...

[WinchesterM1]

What length barrel do you have? My Saiga is the 20” and with the NOE RD16( over 21.5 of IMR4198 shoots around 3” at 100

Which I’m more then happy with

[mojomandan]

Hey, Winchester. Mine is a 16.5" barrel. I am not familiar with the NOE RD16 mold and can't find it on the web. What are the specs on that?

[MT Chambers]

Have you cleaned the copper fouling out of the barrel?

[WinchesterM1]

Hey, Winchester. Mine is a 16.5" barrel. I am not familiar with the NOE RD16 mold and can't find it on the web. What are the specs on that?

Sorry it’s the Ranch dog 165 hp moldAttachment 265319Attachment 265320

[Larry Gibson]

mojomandan

"I started with 20.2 grains of H4198. My results were disappointing after shooting 5 rounds of each type of ammo in each rifle."

Your right at the max load level of H4198 with the 160 gr cast (CBH #4). Might drop back to the start load of 16 gr and see if accuracy is better with 16, 17 or 18 gr. I also have found H4895 to be the best powder with my 155 and 164 gr cast bullets in the 7.62x39 cartridge. They shoot very well with 27 gr.

I've always had H4895 be the best powder for use in AK/SKSs with the Hornady 150 .312 SP. I suggest 24 - 27 gr. RL 7 at 25 - 26 gr is also a very good powder.

[mac1911]

Hey, guys.

I’m back to reloading after a 5 year hiatus with a question.

I am reloading 7.62x39 for a Saiga “sporter rifle” and an NPAP AK47. Both are zeroed with iron sights and Wolf 123 grain FMJ…by “zeroed” I mean I get groups of 2-3” at 50 yards in and around the bullseye. Best I can do.

Following the Hornady Handbook of Reloading and Hodgdon’s reloading data center site, I reloaded both Lee 160 grain, .312” gas checked boolits (from Lyman #2 alloy) and some Hornady .312” diameter 150 grain soft points.

I started with 20.2 grains of H4198. My results were disappointing after shooting 5 rounds of each type of ammo in each rifle.

With the NPAP, I had 2” groups, 4” high with both types of projectile. Not too bad. But with the Saiga, they were about 6” right and 3” low with larger 4” groups. Moving to 21.5 grains of H4198 produced similar results. I chose not to graduate to my 23 grain loads as I did not want to waste components.

Saiga has a 1:9.44” twist rate (chrome-lined barrel), NPAP 1:10” rate. Both slugged at identical .310” groove diameter. I just don’t know how long each rifle’s freebore area is, or how far each projectile is from where the rifling begins. But, still, I am disappointed especially with the Saiga.

Why would the Saiga be so far off with large groups, while the NPAP was a bit better? I realize I moved from 123 grain to 150-160 grains, but expected better from my Saiga. Plus, most people rave about the Lee .312” cast boolits in their AKs.

Suggestions? Should I conclude my Saiga does not like heavier projectiles?

My sks's and mak 90 did well right out of the gate. H4895 with 150 grain lee 312 as dropped and ran through the 312 sizer to seat check. LLA for lube. I used The hodgdon H4895 reduced method for a starting load and just loaded .5 grains until I got 100% function in all my x39 semi rifles. That was 20 grains IIRC. That combo will hold the black of a SR1@100 yards when my eyes and sights get along. Im sure I could do better but under 5 moa for quick home made cast slugs is good. Heck Im a 3moa shooter with irons (that I can see) so im not looking for anything special.
25 years algo Lapua or Norma had "match" ammo for the x39. I snuck down to 2" groups with a scope on the Mak90.
Stop mixing FMJ and cast , your barrel should have a clean start then just work it with cast until you see good groups. As for any shifts in your "zero" its going to happen. Think barrel harmonics or barrel whip it will change dramatically with the AK and with different bullets/loads.

[mojomandan]

mojomandan

"I started with 20.2 grains of H4198. My results were disappointing after shooting 5 rounds of each type of ammo in each rifle."

Your right at the max load level of H4198 with the 160 gr cast (CBH #4). Might drop back to the start load of 16 gr and see if accuracy is better with 16, 17 or 18 gr. I also have found H4895 to be the best powder with my 155 and 164 gr cast bullets in the 7.62x39 cartridge. They shoot very well with 27 gr.

I've always had H4895 be the best powder for use in AK/SKSs with the Hornady 150 .312 SP. I suggest 24 - 27 gr. RL 7 at 25 - 26 gr is also a very good powder.

I will follow the lower starting loads for the Lee cast and try it. I'll also see if I can find H4895 powder and give that a shot (pun intended) with jacketed.

Thank you, everyone.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

H4198 is my favorite powder for jacketed 123gr loads in that caliber. Didn't work so well with cast.

With cast I got under an inch at 50 yards with 5744 and a 165gr boolit. Same powder that works best with my cast 308 winchester loads. I'm sure I could do better with better glass and a bolt gun. I was using an Sig xi Russian.

[GhostHawk]

Any time I am switching from Jacketed to Cast I like to pull a single patch moistened with ATF (Dextron II or III) through the bore. Just to clean things up.

Then shoot a fouling shot. Then start your testing. I've just had better results doing so.

[tomme boy]

How were you lubing the cast bullets?

[armoredman]

I got my best results in 7.62x39mm with cast sized to .311, powder coated. Also the best powder for 7.62x39mm is Accurate Arms #1680, in my humble opinion.
This is 8 out of 10 on the big steel at 200 yards from an 11 inch barreled BREN 2 MS pistol with Shockwave cheek rest. 129 gr NOE bullet, powder coated and sized to .311 when gas checked. 21gr AA#1680, 2.185 COAL. This load works well in every 7.62x39mm rifle I have owned, bolt action or semi auto.

[dogmower]

i shoot an rcbs 130 grain cast, pc boolit over 25 grains of rl7. works in the ar15, sks, ak47 and ruger american. good load, try it.

[mojomandan]

Any time I am switching from Jacketed to Cast I like to pull a single patch moistened with ATF (Dextron II or III) through the bore. Just to clean things up.

Then shoot a fouling shot. Then start your testing. I've just had better results doing so.

Good suggestion, I will.

How were you lubing the cast bullets?

Boolits were powder-coated. I did not use lube.

i shoot an rcbs 130 grain cast, pc boolit over 25 grains of rl7. works in the ar15, sks, ak47 and ruger american. good load, try it.

My biggest problem right now is finding powder. The places I have called that actually have what I am looking for do not have a hazmat license to ship, and they are waaaaay too far to get myself (I am in NJ, powder is in MO, CO, etc). Local places (for me) have none whatsoever.

[mojomandan]

While I wait for H4895 and RL7 to become available for me, I decided to buy a 6-cavity Lee C312-155 mold. I had been using a 2-cavity C312-160 mold and wanted greater production numbers. I also liked the dual driving band design of the C312-155 mold.

Anyway, with Lyman #2 alloy, my boolits come out .314"! As I had mentioned above, my rifles' groove diameters are both .310". I powder coat instead of lube, making my boolits about .315" +/- 0.001"

Question: I have noticed when sizing my boolits with my Lee .311 sizer (it actually sizes to .310"), it takes the powder coat completely off the driving bands.

Will that contribute to leading of the barrel? And, would that affect accuracy?

I do have a .314" sizer, but that is .004" larger than my groove diameter, so I figured it is too big....

[popper]

You can use H2O as a sizing lube but BLL works so much better. Any liquid wax will do and VERY little is needed. I use about 6 drops of BLL for 50-60 bullets. Drops, not drips.