A Question of Nipples

[Theditchman]

What's the difference between a musket nipple and a #11 cap nipple?..Some nipples are short and some are long...Is this the difference?

[LAGS]

A musket cap nipple is fatter on the shank.
The length can vary too.
I recently ordered one by mistake.
I am going to hold on to it and see if I might want to try musket caps in the near future.
The one I ordered is a metric thread that fits a couple of my Spanish made guns

[725]

Some musket nipples are the same thread as you #11's. Many use the musket cap because it's hotter and easier to hold in your hand. When the fingers get cold, the bigger cap is easier to stick on the nipple. #11's work fine, just harder for my fat fingers to grip.

[Good Cheer]

And to complicate matters the hammers that are made for use with #11 caps typically have a recess on their face that is too small to properly strike a musket cap.

[poppy42]

Man! I was afraid that this was one of those kinky posts!

[arcticap]

The difference is in the diameter of the cone and its taper that are made to fit the different size caps. --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percussion_cap

Click on a photo to enlarge it.

[mooman76]

I have heard some say they actually are not any hotter, just bigger. I don't really know because I have never tried them. They do make #11 Mag caps though.

[Theditchman]

I see the difference in thickness...but what about length ?...I just got a bunch of nipples all the same thread but some are short and some are long..is this just a manufacturing difference?..which is better..long or short..or is it whatever works?

[dondiego]

I see the difference in thickness...but what about length ?...I just got a bunch of nipples all the same thread but some are short and some are long..is this just a manufacturing difference?..which is better..long or short..or is it whatever works?

There are different nipple lengths for different applications. Cap and ball revolvers use shorter nipples in general. My Underhammer rifles use slightly longer nipples than most rifles. Nipples are often made for specific models.

[bedbugbilly]

arcticap . . . . picture is worth a thousands words!

Musket caps were designed for and used on large bore military smoothbores and rifled muskets, carbines. The large 4 or 6 "winged" musket cap allows for quick removal of the cap (the wings) under combat conditions.

Standard "non-winged" #10, #11, etc. caps were designed to use on sporting rifles, fowlers, etc. as well as on military cap and ball revolvers as the space around the nipple on a revolver cylinder is very limited.

Nipples come in various "cone lengths" and base thread lengths - as well as thread size and pitch.

Example: a cap and ball revolver takes a smaller cone length due to the design of the revolver and limited space between the back of the cylinder and the recoil shield.

A rifle/shotgun/fowler takes a longer cone due to the design off the rifle and the geometry of the hammer cup to nipple location, angle, etc.

Thread size and pitch vary according to design as well. A musket nipple is larger as the design of the military arm is larger - heavier - a heavier lock and mainspring translating into more hitting force on the nipple as opposed to the smaller locks on civilian sporting rifles/shotguns/etc.

That doesn't mean that a musket cap nipple cannot be used on a sporting gun or that a sporting gun nipple cannot be used on a military musket - I used an Ampco #11 nipple on an original .577 Barnett Enfield for many years and it worked fine.

They also make nipples for sporting guns that use musket caps. I recently bought a new Lyman Trade Rifle in .50 to set up for target shooting to experiment with different boolits at varying distances. I bought a musket cap nipple for it mainly due to the fact that I had musket nipples when i bought it and was't sure if I was going to be able to get #10 and #11 caps. As stated above though - the limiting factor of using a musket nipple on a sporting rifle is dependent on the size of the hammer cup and the alignment with the nipple - the hammer cup muse clear the edges of the circumference of the top of the musket nipple and hit it squarely to be efficient ignition of the cap. Any misalignment can cause an issue.

As far as the "thread length" or base length of a nipple - again, that depends on the individual gun design. If you go to Track of the Wolf, you will see a variety of nipple sizes and lengths - both in cone length and base length. The "base length" becomes an important factor, especially in certain designs of rifles such as an "underhammer" such as the H & A under hammers the were popular in the 50s and 60s or in a design such as a "side slapper"/"mule ear" lock rifle. On those designs, the nipple screws directly into the barrel. The nipple needs to be fitted to the particular barrel the same way as the "drum" of a drum & nipple on a percussion rifle. The size of the barrel (across the flats) along with the bore size will determine the wall thickness of the barrel. The correct base length of the nipple needs to be used so that the bottom of the nipple is very close to the wall of the bore - if the base is short, it will allow a "pocket" to collect fouling and it can also catch/snag patches when cleaning - if too long, the base will protrude into the bore which will also allow fouling to collect around it and prevent a patch/jag from reaching all the way to the breech when cleaning.

When replacing the nipple on your firearm - it is important that you know the thread size and pitch - many of the production rifles/pistols made in Italy, etc. will have a metric thread. Nipples are available in steel, stainless steel, ampco (a kind of a bronze type material), etc.

#10, #11 caps are not all created "equal". It depends on the manufacturer. Google "percussion cap sizes" and you should come up with a chart that shows the ID as well as the length of the cap depending on the maker. German RWS caps are good caps but they do not correspond to some of the other brands such as CCI, Remington, etc. as far as ID of the cap. You want the cap to fit firmly on the nipple so that it is seated down all the way - if not - you will probably pull the trigger and the hammer will seat the nipple all the way by swaging it on the nipple but it may take another hammer strike to set it off.

It is not uncommon to have to "fit" the nipple cone to the caps you have. If you, say, buy a thousand of a brand of #11 caps and they are too snug for the nipple cone - you can take the nipple out and carefully polish the cone down with very fine emery paper until he cap seats and fits snug. I have done this many times over the years on both cap and ball revolvers as well as rifles/shot guns. I carefully chuck the base of the nipple in a drill press - so as not to damage the threads - and polish it down. Take your time and check the fit frequently.

On the other hand, you may get a nipple that is a tad bit small for the cap. If that happens, you can carefully "pinch" the cap so that it seats on the nipple and the tension of the squeezed sides retains it in place. This is not the "ideal" situation but it has been used since the invention of the percussion system I would imagine.

In today's world - where there may be a shortage of percussion caps - you also have he option of using the "Mag Spark" system. This is a device that is used in place of a nipple which allows you to use a 209 shotgun primer in place of a percussion cap. It is screwed in, in place of the nipple. I have not tried one personally, but many here have used them with great success. Once in place, the top is unscrewed and a 209 primer put in place and the cover replaced over it. As I understand it, the cover has a striker that is hit by the hammer to set the primer off. You can google "Mag Spark" to find the maker's site. They are made in a variety of thread pitch and sizes to fit a wide variety of makes. Since the device is longer than a nipple, the only issue that I have heard of is in relation to the location of the hammer cup in the "half-cock" or safety position as far as clearance of the hammer cup and the striker. i.e. - the hammer may have to be cocked to install the primer and then lowered to the half-cock position until ready to fire. I am going to order one just to test it out on y Lyman Trade Rifle to test it. While I much prefer the traditional percussion cap - if for no other reason, the Mag Spark system would allow a person to keep shooting using primers until they could get a supply of percussion caps. It seems that a "plus" of the Mag Spark system is that it would be especially handy for hunting as the primer is confined as well as being protected from weather conditions as opposed to a percussion cap. Anyone who has hunted with a percussion cap rifle/shotgun will eventually experience a "loss of a cap" with the hammer on half-cock not to mention the accumulation of water/moisture when hunting in rainy, snowy or sleet conditions.

[Theditchman]

Thank you very much for some great information.....when you come down in the winter let me know