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Thread: Has powder coating removed the need for bullet hardness?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    I still use Lyman #2 for my rifles. The PC gives me the option of shooting without gas checks, no leading, and no mess. Hardness is required to not 'skid' the rifling.

    For pistols it means no leading, no mess, and faster speeds without gas checks. COWW without hardening will work fine and in some cases better than hardened bullets.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master nueces5's Avatar
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    I've been using polyester-based PCs for about a year and a half. Transparent.
    I don't need to heat beyond 175 ° C for the powder to become a uniform layer. Every time I use less hardness, and I get the same results
    I have shot 9mm with 10 BHN, and 45 ACP with 8 BHN with no problems.
    Although as they say above, for 308 and 765 Arg, better results are obtained with harder alloys.
    In general, this is my short experience

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmortell View Post
    but why cook at not normal temps? if your worried about hardness, baking at normal temps then air cooling is gonna be very similar to a air cooling from the mold and similar with comparing water drop to water drop from oven.
    YOu can powder coat, reheat and water drop after they powder coat has set.
    I would even water drop right out of the powder coat oven.
    Go now and pour yourself a hot one...

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x View Post
    I would even water drop right out of the powder coat oven.
    that is what i do. but i dont see any point to cook at lower than recommended temp unless your trying to save a few cents on electric bill

  5. #25
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmortell View Post
    that is what i do. but i dont see any point to cook at lower than recommended temp unless your trying to save a few cents on electric bill
    Nailed it.
    Go now and pour yourself a hot one...

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    If you want to WD after coating (I do for rifle and 9mm) you need >2% Sb in the alloy and it needs to be close to 400F for one hr. Won't hurt the coating. It takes time at temp for the atoms to move around in the SOLID alloy. PC isw like M&Ms, just a slick coating that adds a little toughness. I have 4% Sb alloy for 308 high pressure stuff, cut it 50/50 with pure for low presure pistol. I do WD for HV just AC for LV.
    Whatever!

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy gnappi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nagantino View Post
    When I first discovered casting, a number of years ago, I thought that this is the only way. But I soon discovered that while casting is fun, it’s only the start. My sticky bullets were unpleasant to handle and they keyholes. I tried the factory crimp die getting more and more crimp until the bullet was moving in its brass. The smoke was the worst though. On an indoor range the smoke was let’s say, remarkable. The end came while shooting an outdoor IPSC stage. It was a sunny still day and I had to stop shooting the targets as the smoke generated obliterated my view. So all my moulds were put away and I was asking guys did they want to buy them off me. It was the Covid lockdown that had me return to casting and trying this thing called Powder Coating. I have the time to do it and it’s a creative hobby so I’m glad I never sold my moulds.
    Boy, Deja Vu! I've also had to stop shooting and wait for a hole in the smoke on a stage from the smoke induced fog

    Aside from having the time to PC, the riots made plated bullets and finished ammo unobtanium for my polygonal rifled Tanfoglio pistols and now I can cast all I want.
    Regards,

    Gary

  8. #28
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    gnappi you'll want to cast the larget size boolit the chambers and go a little hard on your alloy for polygonal rifling

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    If you want to WD after coating (I do for rifle and 9mm) you need >2% Sb in the alloy and it needs to be close to 400F for one hr. Won't hurt the coating. It takes time at temp for the atoms to move around in the SOLID alloy. PC isw like M&Ms, just a slick coating that adds a little toughness. I have 4% Sb alloy for 308 high pressure stuff, cut it 50/50 with pure for low presure pistol. I do WD for HV just AC for LV.
    I have not heat treated lead alloys in a long time. But, I love powder coating.

    I had 'heard' that baking the PC too long harms the coating (also from looking at PC vendor heat/time charts and heeding their cautions on cure times).

    So, I am guessing your bullets do not suffer from the extended cure time?

    PS my air cooled stuff (Lyman #2) works well in my rifles up to 2400fps (I haven't had the need to go faster).

  10. #30
    Boolit Buddy gnappi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conditor22 View Post
    gnappi you'll want to cast the larget size boolit the chambers and go a little hard on your alloy for polygonal rifling
    I don't have a hardness tester but they pass the "won't scratch with a thumbnail" test

    When I had Glocks I used copper plated, these Tanfos are the first polygonal rifling I've cast for it's good to know someone that can shed light on using them, Thanks!
    Regards,

    Gary

  11. #31
    Boolit Master prickett's Avatar
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    My $.02: PC allows slightly softer alloy. Think of it like a sausage where the PC is the sausage's skin. You can squish the sausage without breaking the skin, but that doesn't mean the results will be any good in a boolit (i.e. poor accuracy).

  12. #32
    Boolit Bub
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    Ignorant question, do you size the bullets at all before PC?

  13. #33
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    I got back into casting in 2012 because the ammo/reloading shelves were bare and I needed several hundred rounds a week to continue shooting in weekly IDPA matches. Powder coating was my answer to why quit casting in the first place; I didn't like the sticky mess. Since I knew nothing about PC I spent a good bit of time with those that did. They knew nothing about coating bullets. but they knew everything about polymers.

    So from what I learned from the experts: the polymer is as hard as copper, it has a tenacious bond, it's flexible and very tough. Encasing a bullet with the polymer it actually forms a jacket. If the bullet is properly coated and cured this jacket will withstand the torque spinup of a 30/06, which is approximately 50,000 PSI. I personally have confirmed this with full power range lead loads in various calibers up to 3500 FPS in a 22-250. I have PC fired pure lead at 1400 FPS with no issues, according to the pressure table this would be impossible with a lubed bullet. It works because the bullet is riding on the polymer jacket.

    Problem is so many choose to hang on to thinking based on lubed bullets; they shoot oversized bullets and worry about the perfect alloy, when they should be thinking jacketed bullet.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master prickett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barr View Post
    Ignorant question, do you size the bullets at all before PC?
    I don't. In case you are new to the process, sizing does NOT remove the PC.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    I size before and after PC. Before because that's when I crimp on the gas checks. After to get the bullet back down to groove dia. If I did not use gas checks then I would size after PC.

    But, some bullets may be a bit hard to size if they start out bigger in dia. Sizing .002-4" is ok but more than that can be a bit tough. If they start out large then size before and after PC.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    I Spray PC, keeping the reduced Shank clean by setting the base into reamed holes in a sheetmetal pan. After cooking I install the check/size, tumble PC a second clear coat, then size again.

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  17. #37
    Boolit Buddy gnappi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barr View Post
    Ignorant question, do you size the bullets at all before PC?
    I do... Because I don't understand the whole dynamics of what happens to the PC, and I'm not very hip to the minutiae of casting/coating/sizing yet, but my 9mm cast bullets have come out:

    As Cast .3595 to .360"
    Lead Sized to .355"
    Then PC'd .3565 to .357"
    And sized with PC to .355"

    After sizing I find a slight amount of PC in a ring on the bottom of the bullet that was displaced by the sizing operation.

    So I do not know what would happen in the case below?

    If an as cast bullet without sizing (.360") and then PC'ing adds .0015 to .002 the finished bullet might be .361"-.362" then size down to .355 which might make the PC either mostly go away with a thin "wash" of PC unless the PC squishes itself into the bullet?
    Regards,

    Gary

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnappi View Post
    I do... Because I don't understand the whole dynamics of what happens to the PC, and I'm not very hip to the minutiae of casting/coating/sizing yet, but my 9mm cast bullets have come out:

    As Cast .3595 to .360"
    Lead Sized to .355"
    Then PC'd .3565 to .357"
    And sized with PC to .355"

    After sizing I find a slight amount of PC in a ring on the bottom of the bullet that was displaced by the sizing operation.

    So I do not know what would happen in the case below?

    If an as cast bullet without sizing (.360") and then PC'ing adds .0015 to .002 the finished bullet might be .361"-.362" then size down to .355 which might make the PC either mostly go away with a thin "wash" of PC unless the PC squishes itself into the bullet?
    You have hit on one of the problems; off the shelf molds drop bullets that have a lot of metal to be moved and even more when PC. Rifling is typically about .004" deep, once filled to form a gas seal the excess metal has to go somewhere.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Gnappi, do those .355's shoot well for you? .356/.357 is more common in cast 9mm, and some folks go larger if bore measurements of the gun being loaded for are above nominal.

  20. #40
    Boolit Buddy gnappi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin c View Post
    Gnappi, do those .355's shoot well for you? .356/.357 is more common in cast 9mm, and some folks go larger if bore measurements of the gun being loaded for are above nominal.
    They have show well in Colt 1911 9 but I have not used them in my polygonal rifled Tanfos yet.

    I have .357 and .358 Star dies, and I may wind up getting a .356 from Magma if my first run of bullets do not pan out well.
    Last edited by gnappi; 09-09-2020 at 11:43 PM.
    Regards,

    Gary

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check