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Thread: Has powder coating removed the need for bullet hardness?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    I have a number of 9mm handguns and I have slugged the barrels on all of them. From that, I size .356". I have run limited Ransom Rest tests with identical loads and found increasing the bullet size and the group size increases also. I know some say they shoot bullets several thousands over sized and get better accuracy, but I would like to see that put to a test. This is what I like about the Ransom Rest, it takes out the human element.

    I probably could size .355" since my barrels are likely close enough, but since I built and use a pneumatic sizer for speed and less effort I use a Lee push through sizer, not readily available in .355'. I have several 9mm loads that will deliver 1-1/2" and under groups at 25 yards with my .356" bullets, so I don't plan on spending the time, effort or money to find out.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master

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    I have done ladder tests on 0.367" bullets in 9.3x57 using 200 grain powder coated bullets.
    Accuracy starts to fall off just as the 5744 starts to burn consistently - about 2200 fps
    Powder coat is not as tough as copper jackets.
    Powder coat seems to allow higher velocities than grease/alox lubed bullets.

    2200 fps - the group opened up but vecity spread was less than 50 fps
    Click image for larger version. 

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    1963 fps (AV) Velocity spread was 110 fps.
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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Aug 10 D5744 200 gr pc GC 29 gr.jpg  
    Last edited by 10x; 09-10-2020 at 09:47 AM.
    Go now and pour yourself a hot one...

  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x View Post
    I have done ladder tests on 0.367" bullets in 9.3x57 using 200 grain powder coated bullets.
    Accuracy starts to fall off just as the 5744 starts to burn consistently - about 2200 fps
    Powder coat is not as tough as copper jackets.
    Powder coat seems to allow higher velocities than grease/alox lubed bullets.

    2200 fps - the group opened up but vecity spread was less than 50 fps
    Click image for larger version. 

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    1963 fps (AV) Velocity spread was 110 fps.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Have you considered you are increasing the velocity with a non-concentric bullet, which has nothing to do with the PC?

  4. #44
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post
    Have you considered you are increasing the velocity with a non-concentric bullet, which has nothing to do with the PC?
    No I have not. The bullets seem to be concentric...
    I do not believe this is a powder coat issue but is a lead softness issue

    The are from an 4 cavity Accurate mold, 13 gr Unique puts them into 1.25" at 100 meters

    The group size was getting smaller until the last load when it increased dramatically
    Go now and pour yourself a hot one...

  5. #45
    Boolit Master prickett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x View Post
    Powder coat is not as tough as copper jackets.
    Powder coat seems to allow higher velocities than grease/alox lubed bullets.
    I'd say PC allows slightly higher velocities. As you've found, at a certain point, accuracy falls apart. I liken it to a sausage. You can squeeze it and the outer coating may still be intact, but the soft inner contents will deform. So, an intact PC does not guarantee the inner soft lead will grab the lands.

  6. #46
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    I don't cast or coat boolits. I shot coated boolits yesterday and was appauled by the amount of lead in the barrel when I cleaned it. In my opinion, coating boolits is not a substitute for the use of softer lead. In the future I will pay more attention to the hardness of the coated boolits I purchase. Update - turns out the lead boolits were 18 on the Brinell hardness scale. They should not have leaded the barrel. Or am I missing something?
    Last edited by Dogbone13; 09-12-2020 at 12:55 AM.
    Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. NRA Life Member

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x View Post
    No I have not. The bullets seem to be concentric...
    I do not believe this is a powder coat issue but is a lead softness issue

    The are from an 4 cavity Accurate mold, 13 gr Unique puts them into 1.25" at 100 meters

    The group size was getting smaller until the last load when it increased dramatically

    I’m guessing it’s your “lack of” alloy hardness as well.

    I tried 16:1 pewter and pure lead mixed 7.8 Bh alloy and 50/50 ac COWW and pure lead with 2% pewter added to the total weight, 10.4 alloy at 2100 FPS out of my Marlin 336 chambered in 35 Rem at 100 yards. Both loaded with 40 grains of varget. The softer lead had about a 2” group. The harder alloy a 1” group. I lightened the trigger and shot two groups in a row like this at 100 yards with the harder alloy. I never restested the softer alloy but I’m sure it still won’t shoot this tight. I tried my harder alloy at 200 yards that day and shot a 2 3/4” group. Never tried 200 yards before with cast. Figured I’d never have to shoot that far in my woods but was just Curious. It had a 9” drop sighted 1” high at 100 yards.



    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 09-11-2020 at 10:54 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x View Post
    No I have not. The bullets seem to be concentric...
    I do not believe this is a powder coat issue but is a lead softness issue

    The are from an 4 cavity Accurate mold, 13 gr Unique puts them into 1.25" at 100 meters

    The group size was getting smaller until the last load when it increased dramatically
    This is consistent with the idea that you have hit the "rpm limit" of your bullets. It is common with the .30 cal cartridges as many barrels have a 1:10 twist. This limits the accurate velocity of most .30 cal cast bullets to around 2000fps. Above that the imperfections in the bullet and/or the stresses on the lead when spun that fast manifest themselves in larger groups. Yes, you can get a little faster, IF you cast bullets that are nearly perfect. You may also need to go to a harder alloy so they maintain their form.

    I've shot PC bullets in my .308 (1:10 twist barrel) up to 2400fps without leading (Lyman #2 alloy, ~16bhn). Group size started increasing when I went above 2000fps. My most consistent loads are in the 1800fps range. I've also experimented with plain base bullets and coating. I did not see leading until the velocity went above 2000fps.

  9. #49
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I’ve also tried different powders that yield tighter groups at higher velocities than others. To many variables come into play.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x View Post
    No I have not. The bullets seem to be concentric...
    I do not believe this is a powder coat issue but is a lead softness issue

    The are from an 4 cavity Accurate mold, 13 gr Unique puts them into 1.25" at 100 meters

    The group size was getting smaller until the last load when it increased dramatically
    If a bullet comes from a mold regardless of the quality of the mold, alloy, casting technique or experience of the user the bulles is not concentric. This is just a fact. Sizing the bands will make it round but the remainder of ther bullet is not concentric (lopsided). A non-concentric bullet is going to wobble and once it starts the wobble only gets worse. You are not doing anything wrong and it most definitely has nothing to do with the PC. This is the problem with full power cast rifle loads because you are fighting physics.. A full power load my be quite accurate at shorter ranges like 50 yards, but out at 100 or greater you end up with more of a pattern than a group.

    If we could produce match grade bullets simply by casting why would anyone buy commercial bullets? If you want accurate full power cast loads it can be done, but that is another story.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post
    If a bullet comes from a mold regardless of the quality of the mold, alloy, casting technique or experience of the user the bulles is not concentric. This is just a fact. Sizing the bands will make it round but the remainder of ther bullet is not concentric (lopsided). A non-concentric bullet is going to wobble and once it starts the wobble only gets worse. You are not doing anything wrong and it most definitely has nothing to do with the PC. This is the problem with full power cast rifle loads because you are fighting physics.. A full power load my be quite accurate at shorter ranges like 50 yards, but out at 100 or greater you end up with more of a pattern than a group.

    If we could produce match grade bullets simply by casting why would anyone buy commercial bullets? If you want accurate full power cast loads it can be done, but that is another story.

    This is very very interesting. I am going to swage down some 0.375" 200 grain bullets and see if groups from jacketed bullets open up like this...

    I have made cast bullets that have given match grade groups, as have other folk I know. Accuracy records have been set with cast bullets that have been equalled by commercial and custom jacketed bullets.
    Go now and pour yourself a hot one...

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x View Post
    This is very very interesting. I am going to swage down some 0.375" 200 grain bullets and see if groups from jacketed bullets open up like this...

    I have made cast bullets that have given match grade groups, as have other folk I know. Accuracy records have been set with cast bullets that have been equalled by commercial and custom jacketed bullets.
    Outstanding accuracy can be achieved with cast bullets. One you have already found is low velocity.

    But if you are going for accuracy at full power you have got to overcome the inherent flaw in cast bullets. One would be swaged bullets, but most can't pony up a grand for a set of custom dies. I think it may be possible to swage a PC bullet using a single die, but I don't know of anyone that has done this as the swage die would need to match the bullet design.

    The other is choose a nose rider bullet design, install a gas check perfectly flat and perpendicular then size the bands to fit the bore and the nose to fit the throat of your rifle, keeping the two in alignment. This is not as easy as it sounds and special tooling is required. I only know of one person (Bama) on this site who has mastered this technique and his cast PC bullets are absolutely the best I have ever seen.

    If you jump on this to save you some time and money; when NOE introduced his bushing sizing system I thought this 2 bushing system was the answer, size the bands and size the nose. Problem is it doesn't work. You still have a lopsided bullet because it is a two step process and nothing to keep the two aligned through the sizing process; like laying a nickel on a quarter. You can have two perfectly round circles, but it doesn't mean they are concentric.

    Good luck with your quest as you are right, it can be done.

  13. #53
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    As you state, it all depends on what you want for a result and how much work you want to put into it.

    Kinda like long range precision shooting. Are commercial match bullets good enough for you or do you need the extra accuracy from weight sorting down to less than 0.1gn or 'pointing' bullets or even custom made bullets.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    As you state, it all depends on what you want for a result and how much work you want to put into it.

    Kinda like long range precision shooting. Are commercial match bullets good enough for you or do you need the extra accuracy from weight sorting down to less than 0.1gn or 'pointing' bullets or even custom made bullets.
    50 years ago it was very important, today not much at all.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post
    Outstanding accuracy can be achieved with cast bullets. One you have already found is low velocity.

    But if you are going for accuracy at full power you have got to overcome the inherent flaw in cast bullets. One would be swaged bullets, but most can't pony up a grand for a set of custom dies. I think it may be possible to swage a PC bullet using a single die, but I don't know of anyone that has done this as the swage die would need to match the bullet design.
    A friend lent me a CH swage die, with 50-50 WW and indoor range lead and a standard Lee Classic cast I could swage a bullet either direction. That meant turning the base into a nose and the nose into a base.



    When just reforming and not bleeding the cast bullet to uniform weight/volume the end result is not perfect. This can be seen in the imperfections not quite swaged out. But IMHO with that alloy the swage die does not need to be a clone of the bullet mold to get good results. These were powder coated and then swaged afterwards, the PC is quite flexible. There are far higher quality swage dies avail than the CH probably. Also a tiny bleed hole in the base punch might allow more consistent results too, just shave the bases smooth with a razor blade afterwards maybe.
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  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    Reforming the bullet in whole or as much as possible is the key, but a think a gas check is needed also. The PC jacket will take the torque spin up and protect the base from the hot gas, but a perfectly installed check will provide a flat and perpendicular base so important to accuracy. The bore rider design fitted to the barrel has the greatest surface contact allowing the barrel to act as a swage when fired. This is not speculation, "Bama" has already proven 350 yard accuracy results.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post
    Outstanding accuracy can be achieved with cast bullets. One you have already found is low velocity.

    But if you are going for accuracy at full power you have got to overcome the inherent flaw in cast bullets. One would be swaged bullets, but most can't pony up a grand for a set of custom dies. I think it may be possible to swage a PC bullet using a single die, but I don't know of anyone that has done this as the swage die would need to match the bullet design.

    The other is choose a nose rider bullet design, install a gas check perfectly flat and perpendicular then size the bands to fit the bore and the nose to fit the throat of your rifle, keeping the two in alignment. This is not as easy as it sounds and special tooling is required. I only know of one person (Bama) on this site who has mastered this technique and his cast PC bullets are absolutely the best I have ever seen.

    If you jump on this to save you some time and money; when NOE introduced his bushing sizing system I thought this 2 bushing system was the answer, size the bands and size the nose. Problem is it doesn't work. You still have a lopsided bullet because it is a two step process and nothing to keep the two aligned through the sizing process; like laying a nickel on a quarter. You can have two perfectly round circles, but it doesn't mean they are concentric.

    Good luck with your quest as you are right, it can be done.
    I am going to go to a much harder alloy and see if accuracy drops off at the same velocity and powder charge, or whether I can attain higher velocities with a harder bullet.
    I have had the experience of increasing the accuracy speed limit on cast bullets by using a harder alloy in 303 British and in 30 calibers.
    The fun is in the discovery, the satisfaction is when I can get an acceptable group at an acceptable hunting velocity.
    Go now and pour yourself a hot one...

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    I double PC rifle bullets to get a thicker jacket, you might be surprised at the BHN rating of average polymers; My Illusion Blue color is a 2-H+ which translates to 26-28 BHN.

    This is Illusion Blue on a 145 gr. 7mm from a 80 year old H&G Mold. It drops beautiful bullets and why not? it is an H&G, but like all cast it is not concentric. Very good full power accuracy at 50 yards, but not at 100.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Dragonheart; 09-14-2020 at 10:26 AM.

  19. #59
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Has powder coating removed the need for bullet hardness?
    Uhhhh..... No.
    [--But--] It sure gives you more leeway.

    Just for grins....
    Last evening I took my `86 Miroku out to see just how fast I could push pure lead/Tested BN 4.5 (PC'd) through it:




    post-1: Mirror bore on dry patch
    post-2: Being "Extra Light," also fast/heavy enough to be headache material off a bench.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check