so, an expander die for .223 in AR cast boolits experiments is a good idea?

[guy_with_boolits]

one gentleman posted that he had very good results using a NOE expander die in his cast .223 for AR experiments..he thinks its because it seats the bullet straight

seems like a good idea

at only $10 for the lee universal expanding die seems like not much a risk right? lee 90798

my existing pacesetter dies dont already do this right?

[geslayton]

The Lee expanding die only expands the case mouth. I believe some of the others actually expand the case neck. If you are loading cast boolits, you will definitely need to expand the mouth and may want to enlarge the necks as well to prevent the boolit from being swaged down.

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[36Power]

Can't comment on how necessary case expanding is to get a straight-seated bullet, but a simple chamfer to the inside of the case mouth seems to be enuf to get it done in the AR loads I cast.

[Thumbcocker]

Yes it is.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

good idea?

Very much so.
I use the NOE expander insert, installed in the Lee Universal die.

[onelight]

Can't comment on how necessary case expanding is to get a straight-seated bullet, but a simple chamfer to the inside of the case mouth seems to be enuf to get it done in the AR loads I cast.

I tend to try the simplest way first if it works and I am happy with the results I use it , if not then I add tools or change my process to get what I want. For me that is all part of working up loads .

[guy_with_boolits]

Very much so.
I use the NOE expander insert, installed in the Lee Universal die.

should I hunt down that NOE expander insert? How is it different than the LEE universal expander on its own? (yes I'm being lazy but hey if you explain it everyone will see and learn)

[mdi]

I've used a series of tools, both home made and commercial, to flare case mouths. Needle nose pliers, cold chisel heads, home made tapered rode, even 30-06 cases, then Lee Loader flaring tools, Lee universal expanders, and M dies. Even with an M die, flare is needed (kinda hard to stuff a .225" plug in a .222"-.223" tube without a tapered entry way). In my experience getting a bullet started straight is more a function of the reloader than the flaring tool. When I was loading cast in my 223, I used a tapered brass rod (I know, kinda slow, but I wasn't loading for an AR and doing 30 round magazine dumps). Worked fine...

For your experiments a Lee Universal Expander should work, and if you feel it won't, there are a lot of NOE satisfied users here that highly recommend the tool...

[guy_with_boolits]

I've used a series of tools, both home made and commercial, to flare case mouths. Needle nose pliers, cold chisel heads, home made tapered rode, even 30-06 cases, then Lee Loader flaring tools, Lee universal expanders, and M dies. Even with an M die, flare is needed (kinda hard to stuff a .225" plug in a .222"-.223" tube without a tapered entry way). In my experience getting a bullet started straight is more a function of the reloader than the flaring tool. When I was loading cast in my 223, I used a tapered brass rod (I know, kinda slow, but I wasn't loading for an AR and doing 30 round magazine dumps). Worked fine...

so what I'm hearing here is that flaring the mouth is def a thing to do, not just chamfering?

[bedbugbilly]

I don't shoot 223 in an AR. I do load cast in a variety of bottlenecks and I use a Lyman "M" die to expand the neck for my cast. The Lee Universal Expanding Die (I have one) is more of a taper expander - an M die (or the NOE expanders which are like the M die stems) gives more of a straight expansion - depending how deep you set the stem - it will give kind of a "stepped" expansion. I consider them to be my "shoe horn" dies as it makes the oversize cast seat easier and still gives good neck tension. I bought my M dies as I added cartridges and that has been over a long time - before Al (NOE) came out with his expanders. If I was doing it again, I would opt to buy a Lee Universal expander die and the NOE expanders. I think in the long run it would be much cheaper as well as allow you to pout together a good set of expanders of various sizes - some for the same cartridges.

As far as seating them "straighter" - I would have to agree that, for me at least, it does help to seat them straighter - perhaps it would be put better that I think it helps to get them "lined up" straighter before going up into a seating die. IMHO Others may have different experiences.

[toallmy]

The lee expander die + noe stepped plug at the proper size to load your over size cast boolits is a very useful tool .
I have several Lyman M dies but I used custom expander plugs in them for cast boolits .
Do you absolutely need it ? Nope
Will it make loading cast boolits easier ? Yep

[onelight]

should I hunt down that NOE expander insert? How is it different than the LEE universal expander on its own? (yes I'm being lazy but hey if you explain it everyone will see and learn)

The Lee universal will not expand the neck it flares the case mouth so it won't shave the bullet or crush the case.
The neck expander depending on the type will allow the bullet to start in the case and help prevent the case from sizing your bullet down. What you need will depend on your rifles chamber you normally want your bullet .001 to .002 larger than the expanded neck at least that is how I set mine up.

[1hole]

Lee's Universal Expander Die is a misnomer. It's a good tool but it isn't an expander at all, not in the usual sense; it flairs the case mouth for bullet entry and that's all it does ... IF a mouth flairing tool is what you want it's an excellent choice. But, if you actually want to expand the whole neck - in the normal way - get an M, then you can both expand AND flair in a single step.

When I started this stuff back in '65 my first two die sets were Lyman, one was .30 Carbine which included a .30 caliber M die. I quickly learned to use it for my 03-A3 (.30-06) as well. As my cartridge needs increased I got a new ("short") M die for each new diameter. I still use M dies for both rifle and pistol cartridges with both cast and copper bullets; they do a slightly better job of expanding necks straight than conventional ball expanders do and, adjusted properly, they certainly make any bullet's case mouth entry easier/better. After all these years, I would not do without ALL of my M dies! (The patient expired and Redding copied Ms for their handgun dies; smart move!)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

should I hunt down that NOE expander insert?

YES

...How is it different than the LEE universal expander on its own? (yes I'm being lazy but hey if you explain it everyone will see and learn)

The Lee's insert (there are two) expands the case mouth only.
The NOE insert will expand the entire case neck.

For the best accuracy, you want consistent neck tension on the boolit. Typically for cast boolit rifle ammo,you want the neck to be .001 to .002 under the boolit diameter for the best neck tension on a cast boolit. This matters much less with jacketed bullets, and the expander spud on your standard FL size die is likely much undersized for proper cast boolit neck tension.

[guy_with_boolits]

YES


The Lee's insert (there are two) expands the case mouth only.
The NOE insert will expand the entire case neck.

For the best accuracy, you want consistent neck tension on the boolit. Typically for cast boolit rifle ammo,you want the neck to be .001 to .002 under the boolit diameter for the best neck tension on a cast boolit. This matters much less with jacketed bullets, and the expander spud on your standard FL size die is likely much undersized for proper cast boolit neck tension.

nice okay thanks I was wondering if my new .223 dies might already do the neck expansion

any idea what the part number is for the NOE expander insert? I'm guessing from your recommendation probably the .226 x .222 for a .224 sized boolit would do the job?
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop...x-222-exp-plug

presumably these are the instructions? http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?topic=1795.0

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The Lyman 'M' die and the NOE expander used in the Lee Expanding die Body are 'STEPPED' expanders. The smaller diameter is slightly under bullet diameter (minus .001 to .003) the larger step - slightly over bullet diameter (plus .001 to .003). The step allows starting a bullet without 'shaving lead'. The Lee expanding Die simply creates a flare at the case neck. This flare can prevent lead shaving but does not help much with seating bullets straight and can easily get excessive, causing chambering problems. Both work, the 'M' die has long history in the cast bullet world for making bullet seating more simple with less case neck issues from excessive 'flaring' and giving proper bullet tension. The 'M' die stepped expander is not necessary but very worth while with cast boolits. An inside case neck chamfer is not really necessary for bullet seating with either 'M' type or flared expander. An outside chamfer usually helps feeding and provides for a smoother crimp when a crimp is necessary or desired.

[mattw]

What MostlyLeverGuns said... plus I want to add that when seating lead with a properly expanded case you will not have the bullet squished by the case mouth thus retaining proper diameter. Would not recommend loading any lead rounds without a proper expander... pull a bullet from a round without proper expansion and I suspect you will find a now undersized cast bullet.

[gwpercle]

The Lee Universal Case Expanding die is misnamed ...it simply flares the case mouth no case or neck expanding goes on ...but you get the NOE 2-step expander plugs and now you have a true cast boolit expander like a Lyman M-Die ...very sweet , cheaper and lots of sizes , ask NOE what size you need when ordering , give them your boolit size to dia. .
Also some times you simply want a flare on the case mouth (j-word's) and the Lee tool works perfect for that .
Gary

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

nice okay thanks I was wondering if my new .223 dies might already do the neck expansion

any idea what the part number is for the NOE expander insert? I'm guessing from your recommendation probably the .226 x .222 for a .224 sized boolit would do the job?
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop...x-222-exp-plug

presumably these are the instructions? http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?topic=1795.0

You will likely find out that a .224 boolit is undersized.
Many others size to .225
I size mine to .226
It all depends on the Rifle's throat.
AR clones with 556 chamber are usually "generous" in the throat and benefit from a larger diameter boolit.
I use the 228 x 224 exp plug.

[fcvan]

I use Lee .223 dies so just the expander ball. I do however, chamfer the case mouth to prevent shaving lead or PCd lead. It doesn't hurt jacketed bullets when seating. I was 'gifted' thousands of once fired brass with crimped primer pockets. I chucked up a chamfer tool in a hand drill which took care of the primer pockets and case mouths. I would process 250 cases at a time and then load.

It took a while to load them all but was a great way to unwind after work. The casting and PC part was generally done 250 rounds+ at a shot. I have a 3 cavity NOE 225-62RN that drops 100 in nothing flat. PC was tumble coated and placed on fan-folded parchment paper to keep the boolits separated during baking. I have so much loaded that I haven't cast in a few years. I think I need to at least cast some sinkers, I am going through casting withdrawals.