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Thread: "Christ died for our sins"..............

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    The problem here might be that we have different views of what a Christian is. The meaning of being a Christian can be found...in the Bible.
    Semantics.

    Gnostics aside.....

    If one believes that God sent His Son (Jesus) and they accept His teachings (Sermon on the Mount etc.) and try to live by Jesus' teachings and the humble way that he lived on earth...would YOU consider them a Christian?

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    Semantics.

    Gnostics aside.....

    If one believes that God sent His Son (Jesus) and they accept His teachings (Sermon on the Mount etc.) and try to live by Jesus' teachings and the humble way that he lived on earth...would YOU consider them a Christian?
    No. A Christian places his faith (100%) in God's work through Jesus for salvation. This faith manifests itself through a change in behavior. Belief in God and Jesus and trying to live like Jesus without the faith in God's redeeming work misses the mark entirely.

    A belief that if we didn't get it right this time around, but we might do better next time when we are reincarnated is so far removed from Christianity it shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    Semantics.

    Gnostics aside.....

    If one believes that God sent His Son (Jesus) and they accept His teachings (Sermon on the Mount etc.) and try to live by Jesus' teachings and the humble way that he lived on earth...would YOU consider them a Christian?
    Hardly matters what any of us may consider does it?

    Read Mat 7:21-29 and tell us if you would consider those who have worked so hard to be good and earn salvation are Christian.

    Read it and think; maybe there's a bit more to being a Christian than hard work and doing the best they can to achieve a personal goal they and many others have totally misunderstood??

    Bottom line, God measures the heart.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Hardly matters what any of us may consider does it?

    Read Mat 7:21-29 and tell us if you would consider those who have worked so hard to be good and earn salvation are Christian.

    Read it and think; maybe there's a bit more to being a Christian than hard work and doing the best they can to achieve a personal goal they and many others have totally misunderstood??

    Bottom line, God measures the heart.
    God measures the heart and I believe that you don't have to be a Christian to be saved, you just have to have a good heart. The bible is a guide but not the law. It is a bunch of stories to teach what a good heart is and a bunch of stuff men added to make Christianity a Religion and a movement, to form a religious State from the Ashes of Rome Empire and to push Muslims out of Europe and the Holy Lands. As is much of the work of men, this flawed polity caused as much division as it did unity and persecuted many to the point of death. Notice how many churches/religions Christianity has splintered off into. There is no one True Church, not the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox even though there were the Churches of the first centuries. Not any of the myriad of Protestant Churches that broke away and reformed the Church that Peter created.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

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    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  5. #45
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    I guess I am back at Luke ch 18 vs 8.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    God measures the heart and I believe that you don't have to be a Christian to be saved, you just have to have a good heart.
    What any of us "believe" about Christianity is irrelevant if it's not based in reality. How many ignorant people would have to "believe" earth is flat before their beliefs mattered?? But, like a round earth, God is real; that means God is important. But, no man's self-centered ruminations about God are real and therefore they don't qualify for serious people to contemplate.

    Think: If God and his Bible aren't real then there couldn't be a real heaven or hell so anyone's salvation would be a moot question, wouldn't it? All of your unreal contemplations about God and salvation are drifting clouds of smoke in your mind, not reality.

    The bible is a guide but not the law. It is a bunch of stories to teach what a good heart is ...
    If the Bible isn't what it says it is then it's a lie, a total farce and tells us nothing important about "good hearts". But the Bible is true so your nebulous beliefs are only your invented views and carries only the spiritual weight they deserve. Zilch.

    ... and a bunch of stuff men added to make Christianity a Religion and a movement, to form a religious State from the Ashes of Rome Empire and to push Muslims out of Europe and the Holy Lands. As is much of the work of men, this flawed polity caused as much division as it did unity and persecuted many to the point of death.
    Ahhh ... no offense intended Timmy but all of that's just factually dumm.

    (1) When the Bible canon was completed Rome was at the top of her power and no "ashes" were even on the horizon.

    (2) There was no Islam at all when the Bible was completed and Mohammad himself would not be born for another 200 +/- years.

    (3) People have indeed died, many along with their families, for what they knew to be true about Christianity. Those thousands of people, including most of the apostles, didn't/wouldn't die miserably because of insisting on something that isn't true.

    Notice how many churches/religions Christianity has splintered off into.
    That's a confused historical understanding based on the teachings of your RC youth. First, Christianity is our religion, it is not our's or anyone else's "church". Various Christian "churches/religions" as you understand them simply don't exist.

    The one "True Church" exists as the Bride of Christ and includes all true believers from all ages. True believers are spiritually born again as new creatures in Christ when they come to faith/trust in Jesus alone and it has nothing to do with any denomination ... or the fuzzy dreams of misguided religious men.

    The idea of various other "religions/churches" is a misleading teaching about group variations is from gross errors of the Catholic denomination proclaiming itself to be the "one true church" but, even historically, that's NEVER been so.

    Christianity is truly ONE religion and, if we are Christian at all, we comprise ONE body in Christ even if we disagree amongst ourselves about a few non-critical Christian doctrines; your oft stated errors are critical!

    There is no one True Church, not the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox even though there were the Churches of the first centuries. Not any of the myriad of Protestant Churches that broke away and reformed the Church that Peter created.
    You're right at first, then you continue and expose the historical errors perpetrated by the RCC.

    (1) Peter "created" nothing and the RCC mistranslation of "this rock" is a manufactured error. Fact is, other than a self-serving tradition, there is no evidence that Peter was even a strong influence in Rome.

    Peter was/is the man later religious leaders in Rome looked back at and grasped onto to give themselves a bit of credibility in the mid-300s; that was a LOOONG time after the church began so there were no evil conspiracies by Luther and Calvin against poor ol' Catholic popes at play! But, the claim sorta worked for Rome way back then and I guess it still does, sorta; your commenting about Peter at all sorta proves my point!

    (2) Contrary to RCC teachings, not all who are not Roman Catholic are "Protestants."

    The ONLY denominations rightly called "Protestant" are those who protested and, at risk of their lives, rightly broke away from the spiritual and moral depravity of the RCC as it existed in the 1,500s; i.e., Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglican/Church Of England/Episcopals. Other denominations such as Baptists, Methodists, etc., did not protest against or break out of Roman Catholicism at all so they are in no way Protestant. We might fairly include the massive break-away of the Orthodox splinters, circa 800 AD, as protesters but no one calls them Protestant so I won't either.
    Last edited by 1hole; 07-23-2020 at 02:10 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Hardly matters what any of us may consider does it?
    In the end,...no it does matter.
    But it mattered to me what Ickisrulz thought, so I asked him.

    Read Mat 7:21-29 and tell us if you would consider those who have worked so hard to be good and earn salvation are Christian.

    Read it and think; maybe there's a bit more to being a Christian than hard work and doing the best they can to achieve a personal goal they and many others have totally misunderstood??
    I am familiar with those verses.
    I did re-read them and it really does not address the issue of what makes one a Christian.
    This perhaps comes close to what a Christian is:
    24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."

    We probably need to read some books on Bible interpretation in order to understand what they say it means, but I see it as it saying that by living a life guided by Jesus' teachings, we have a good Spiritual foundation.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    We probably need to read some books on Bible interpretation in order to understand what they say it means, but I see it as it saying that by living a life guided by Jesus' teachings, we have a good Spiritual foundation.
    I can see you're being flippant with this comment. So I guess you don't understand why someone might need to learn proper biblical interpretation. The most important reason is to understand how the original audience would have understood the text in question. In order to do this we must understand how they thought, what they were familiar with, what customs were in place, how they used language, what was going on in history during the text's creation (and before), how the text relates to other biblical writings, etc.

    You can read the Bible continuously, but if you don't know the background information, much will remain beyond your grasp. This is not to suggest the Bible has any hidden meanings. It does not. It is just that the modern audience is far removed from the original audience and we need to adjust the way we approach it.

    I know that there are many Christians who believe that the Holy Spirit will miracle biblical meaning into their brains. But this idea is foreign to the New Testament's teaching. Biblical understanding requires work. Not to mention that God gave teachers to the Church for a reason.

    I don't push any particular denomination's doctrine (I myself graduated from Southwestern Assemblies of God University). I just suggest using a good text on biblical interpretation to develop a sound foundation (How to Read the Bible for all Its Worth is excellent for the casual reader). Then I suggest reading scholarly commentaries for in-depth study (the NICOT/NICNT series are very good). Good commentators will discuss all possible interpretations of passages when there are disagreements. No pastor or local Bible study will give you as much information as a scholarly commentary.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    In the end,...no it does matter.
    But it mattered to me what Ickisrulz thought, so I asked him.
    Riz, you're yelping before you're struck! My post #46 was, as noted in the first line and later, responding to Tim in quotes and each of my comments were focused responses to him, not you. I don't know how I could have been more clear about that. Tim and I disagree - a LOT- but we do understand each others good intentions. ???

    Icks is a good man to question, I've observed that he knows what he's talking about.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    I can see you're being flippant with this comment. So I guess you don't understand why someone might need to learn proper biblical interpretation. The most important reason is to understand how the original audience would have understood the text in question. In order to do this we must understand how they thought, what they were familiar with, what customs were in place, how they used language, what was going on in history during the text's creation (and before), how the text relates to other biblical writings, etc.

    You can read the Bible continuously, but if you don't know the background information, much will remain beyond your grasp. This is not to suggest the Bible has any hidden meanings. It does not. It is just that the modern audience is far removed from the original audience and we need to adjust the way we approach it.

    I know that there are many Christians who believe that the Holy Spirit will miracle biblical meaning into their brains. But this idea is foreign to the New Testament's teaching. Biblical understanding requires work. Not to mention that God gave teachers to the Church for a reason.

    I don't push any particular denomination's doctrine (I myself graduated from Southwestern Assemblies of God University). I just suggest using a good text on biblical interpretation to develop a sound foundation (How to Read the Bible for all Its Worth is excellent for the casual reader). Then I suggest reading scholarly commentaries for in-depth study (the NICOT/NICNT series are very good). Good commentators will discuss all possible interpretations of passages when there are disagreements. No pastor or local Bible study will give you as much information as a scholarly commentary.
    Well, flippant was not the intention.
    It was more of a humorous sarcasm that I was thinking when writing it.

    I do appreciate your input and also the Bible interpretation suggestions.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Riz, you're yelping before you're struck! My post #46 was, as noted in the first line and later, responding to Tim in quotes and each of my comments were focused responses to him, not you. I don't know how I could have been more clear about that. Tim and I disagree - a LOT- but we do understand each others good intentions. ???
    I think you are confused.
    I was replying to Post #43, your reply to me.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    I think you are confused.
    I was replying to Post #43, your reply to me.
    Well, I was confused! I do all of my responses with quotes because I know how common that confusion can be.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioon44 View Post
    I guess I am back at Luke ch 18 vs 8.
    Care to expand on that verse in your own words so that we (I) can understand what your point is?

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Riz, you're yelping before you're struck! My post #46 was, as noted in the first line and later, responding to Tim in quotes and each of my comments were focused responses to him, not you. I don't know how I could have been more clear about that. Tim and I disagree - a LOT- but we do understand each others good intentions. ???

    Icks is a good man to question, I've observed that he knows what he's talking about.
    I do not see your intentions as good, you mock people and play games with their names. You deliberately call me Timmy to annoy me. I have seen you do the same with other peoples names and I guess you think is is cute but it is wrong and disrespectful.

    I sign my posts with my real name, respectfully you should refer to me by my name not some nick name you make up for me.

    Tim
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    You deliberately call me Timmy to annoy me. I have seen you do the same with other peoples names and I guess you think is is cute but it is wrong and disrespectful.
    Tim
    I'm a light hearted, direct and open guy, I do call some folk by other names but never anything disrespectful so I see nothing wrong about it.

    I have a 55 year old good friend named Timmy, great guy, but I can't believe I'm the only person who has ever called you Timmy so you shouldn't be too dismayed. I'm old and nothing about me is "cute"! Come to think of it, I wasn't CUTE when I was 25.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    I'm a light hearted, direct and open guy, I do call some folk by other names but never anything disrespectful so I see nothing wrong about it.

    I have a 55 year old good friend named Timmy, great guy, but I can't believe I'm the only person who has ever called you Timmy so you shouldn't be too dismayed. I'm old and nothing about me is "cute"! Come to think of it, I wasn't CUTE when I was 25.
    I have told you and everyone who calls me Timmy that I don't like it but you still do it and the other people who do it are not my friends, my friends understand and just call me Tim. It is disrespectful that you continue to call me Timmy after I asked you not too. You are just trying to get my goat, make all the excuses you want. You have changed other peoples names to things that are insulting as well.

    Tim
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    I have told you and everyone who calls me Timmy that I don't like it but you still do it and the other people who do it are not my friends, my friends understand and just call me Tim. It is disrespectful that you continue to call me Timmy after I asked you not too.
    You haven't told me nor anyone else I've read. Can't help but wonder why you're so touchy about something so trivial but ....

    You are just trying to get my goat, make all the excuses you want.
    You're projecting, some people like to do that. 'Specially self important ones who feel safe in putting their own words and thoughts into what others say and think. But please understand that I don't want your goat, I don't have a clue where your goat's stashed and couldn't care less so he's quite safe.

    Try again and have a nice day.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    You haven't told me nor anyone else I've read. Can't help but wonder why you're so touchy about something so trivial but ....



    You're projecting, some people like to do that. 'Specially self important ones who feel safe in putting their own words and thoughts into what others say and think. But please understand that I don't want your goat, I don't have a clue where your goat's stashed and couldn't care less so he's quite safe.

    Try again and have a nice day.
    Why not just apologize and stop calling him "Timmy?"

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    You haven't told me nor anyone else I've read. Can't help but wonder why you're so touchy about something so trivial but ....



    You're projecting, some people like to do that. 'Specially self important ones who feel safe in putting their own words and thoughts into what others say and think. But please understand that I don't want your goat, I don't have a clue where your goat's stashed and couldn't care less so he's quite safe.

    Try again and have a nice day.
    Well, I told you then and now again so I expect it won't happen anymore. But see you are at it again, pretending you don't understand the phrase "get your goat." Maybe you are just poorly learned so I will explain.

    Given the meaning of 'get your goat', we might expect to find goat as a slang term meaning anger or annoyance. That meaning is recorded in the US book Life in Sing Sing, 1904, which goat is given as a slang term for anger. The phrase originated in the US

    Getting ones goat is getting someone angry. If you can make someone angry they are more likely to do something stupid. I feel you were trying to make me angry and to get me to counter in an insulting way in violation of the forum rules. I won't fall for such tactics. Maybe you don't even know that is what you were doing, I think that is just how you act on a subconscious level. You might just be a natural bully.

    I am not projecting,

    What is projecting emotions?
    Projection is the act of presenting one’s emotions to the outside world without being consciously aware of it.

    I am conscious of what I am attributing to you. It might be you who is projecting.

    Tim
    Last edited by dtknowles; 07-24-2020 at 12:28 PM.
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Why not just apologize and stop calling him "Timmy?"
    Well, now that I know that it puts his panties in a wad I won't say TIMMY anymore. But, apologise? For what? For his almost certain deliberate misinterpreting and feeling sad about how he wants to twist what I said? I do think it would take a LOT more than calling him Timmy to do that! Thus, I believe his claiming offense is a ploy for sympathy.

    I do apologise for what I've actually done wrong but I don't apologise for how others twist and distort what I've said and then claim hurt feelings based on how they twisted it. I mean, I'm an adult, I take responsibility for what I've actually said but I accept no responsibility for how a quivering snowflake misinterprets what I've said. "TIMMY" is not a profane or degrading word in any mature person's vocabulary!

    Seeking public apologies have become the PC tool where snowflakes seek to humiliate others enough to stop crossing none existent "lines" they have drawn. I think we all know that contrived broken heart crimes are phony and the usual apologies are phony. No harm has been done to anyone here, including Tim, so this whole thing is silly. I don't do silly.

    I prefer to be called Jim but I'm often called James and Jimmy; that's just the American way with names and I realize it. It's clear that no offense is intended with my alternate names so I take no offense. I believe that's the grown up way to handle it.

    But, now that I know Tim feels insulted being called "Timmy", I don't want to wound his ego anymore so I won't call him that again. After all, he could be so hurt he might start trying to get MY goat and I sure don't want that! (But, my goat so little and so well hidden that I don't believe he could ever find or get it! )

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