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Thread: Whats with Miroku Winchester

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    That is great news Michael. Now if we could find somebody to manufacture them for those of us that don't have the machining skills. I have both a 71 Browning and an 1886 Winchester that give me light firing pin hits. The only solution I found so far as to use Federal primers that seem to be a little softer but the indentation is very light.

  2. #22
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    Hey Bob,
    That was how mine was for 20 years. Light hits and the rare FTF. Then after the Cowboy Lever Rifle silhouette nationals last year something changed and it completely stopped firing. Not even a little dent.
    I had already performed the amputation on the rebounding hammer strut years ago with zero improvement. I must admit, that was not the result I had expected after all the chatter about it. So something else was going on. The rifle mostly worked, light hits and all, so I delayed getting into it until it stopped working completely.

    After getting into it and seeing how many moving parts were needed to move correctly just to get a simple energy transfer from hammer to primer, I was not surprised the overly complex system gives us riflemen trouble.
    John Browning got it right 135 years ago and I returned the rifle to something closer to what he and Winchester had.

    The dread of disassembly had me slow to get into it. After doing it a few times it goes faster now. There are a few tricks. There is a good chance that if you pulled yours apart and just filed down the little dogleg tab that sticks up (see my red arrow) that would fix the problem. Too bad we aren't neighbors.
    Last edited by Chill Wills; 07-19-2020 at 10:25 AM. Reason: Typo repair
    Chill Wills

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    I chose to turn up a close fitting solid replacement for all the lawyer parts. The last picture shows the grade 8 bolt used. It was then cut off long. Red Loctite and cross pined to retain it. Then it was just a mater of contouring the back end for fit and function.

    Today I tested it with 25 or so loaded rounds with no failure to fire. (and good full sized dents in the fired primers) Yea!
    Good job! specially the pictures .....wish I had taken good pics of mine when I did it ...............

  4. #24
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    Hello Michael, yes, if we were neighbors I would be over there pestering you on how to make that part. I never got that far in disassembling the firing pin from my rifle because when I saw those little parts like in the trigger, "I thought what did they do here"? If what I'm understanding from your picture is that you made just the rear part and it goes into the rear of the Browning firing pin? Then you used Loctite and pinned it so it can't move. If I have it right, then I think I can make that on my little Atlas lathe? I don't know if I can cut that hard of a bolt or not? I'm going to have to take the plunge and pull my rifle apart again and get an understanding of how everything works. Thanks for all the help.

  5. #25
    Boolit Bub
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    Have 2 1892's and 1 1886 of the Japchesters with the rebounding crap, been eyeballing the Browning hammer, firing pin, and safety parts but they are pretty rare and pricey. Also have two Rossi 92's but the quality of machining and barrel twist are obviously a different league but don't feel bad for knocking the Rossi's around. I am looking at adding more Japchesters to the safe but they still need the reliability modification...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old-Win View Post
    Hello Michael, yes, if we were neighbors I would be over there pestering you on how to make that part. I never got that far in disassembling the firing pin from my rifle because when I saw those little parts like in the trigger, "I thought what did they do here"? If what I'm understanding from your picture is that you made just the rear part and it goes into the rear of the Browning firing pin? Then you used Loctite and pinned it so it can't move. If I have it right, then I think I can make that on my little Atlas lathe? I don't know if I can cut that hard of a bolt or not? I'm going to have to take the plunge and pull my rifle apart again and get an understanding of how everything works. Thanks for all the help.
    I did this same conversion several years ago on a Browning 71
    Plan A - yes you have it right just the rear part (I only used locktite - didnt pin it - proly should have - but have a lot of faith in that good red stuff)
    Plan B - give Winchester bob a call - a replacement pin for $30 plus shipping - not expensive in my books (was not an option for me due our stoopid import laws)
    Plan C - I reckon it would work if you just filed that little end of the dog leg bit (I like to keep original parts intact when I do these kind of jobs and I never thought to just do a quick modification)

    You will cut a grade 8 bolt ok with normal tool steel - keep it sharp and go slow - they are alloy steel, more tough rather than more hard - difficult to heat treat - grade 5 is carbon steel - easy to heat treat - good for making reamers etc.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sc0 View Post
    Have 2 1892's and 1 1886 of the Japchesters with the rebounding crap, been eyeballing the Browning hammer, firing pin, and safety parts but they are pretty rare and pricey. Also have two Rossi 92's but the quality of machining and barrel twist are obviously a different league but don't feel bad for knocking the Rossi's around. I am looking at adding more Japchesters to the safe but they still need the reliability modification...
    ????? This was a Browning firing pin gave me the grief - mine did not have the rebound hammer setup and DID /DOES have a proper half cock notch - did I miss something here in the translation (have not seen the innards of the latest japchesters)

    FWIW ......I replaced a busted firing pin in an early Rossi with an original from a Winchester 92 - it fit straight in (Rossi was sometime pre 1985)

  8. #28
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    Japchesters have the rebounding hammer, no half cock, tang safety, and the inertial firing pin. I just pulled apart my 1892 short rifle and am contemplating on how to modify the firing pin to be more reliable. Just trying to make these go bang no matter what when the trigger is pulled, I knew about the rebounding hammer issues but the firing pin I just learned about today... I don't mind the Inertial firing pin design but I dislike it involving more that two parts. Thinking of replacing the internal spring with a piece of steel drill rod...
    Last edited by Sc0; 07-19-2020 at 09:38 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sc0 View Post
    Japchesters have the rebounding hammer, no half cock, tang safety, and the inertial firing pin. I just pulled apart my 1892 short rifle and am contemplating on how to modify the firing pin to be more reliable. Just trying to make these go bang no matter what when the trigger is pulled, I knew about the rebounding hammer issues but the firing pin I just learned about today... I don't mind the Inertial firing pin design but I dislike it involving more that two parts. Thinking of replacing the internal spring with a piece of steel drill rod...
    My mistake - I thought when you wrote eyeballing the Browning parts (and prices) you were contemplating replacing japchester with Browning - couldnt see that going anywhere real useful. (with the firing pin - hadnt thought about replacing hammers)

    I think if I lived where I could get a winchester bob pin in the mail for 30 bucks I proly do that - didnt have that option at the time I did mine - plus I get kinda impatient when I have a gun that wont fire and its pulled to pieces on the bench.

    Thankfully I have enough lever guns on my rack without the crappy hammer and tang slide safety - the stupid part of all this is they didnt make the thing any safer with all their modifications.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    If ever you have the problem I did with the firing pin - This repair did fix the problem.
    Michael's fix has me working on this but before I jump in, I want to get all my ducks in a row before I end up with something I can't fix,. First, I want to know if there is a simpler way by just buying one for an original. I contacted Winchester Bob (there's two of them by the way) on the east coast. He lists 3 different styles and he didn't know whether any would fit but asked me to send the parts. Hhmm! I looked at the MGW website and they show no replacement parts for the Winchester breechblock but do for the Browning. Does anybody know if they are interchangeable in case I need to replace one that I may mess up?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old-Win View Post
    Michael's fix has me working on this but before I jump in, I want to get all my ducks in a row before I end up with something I can't fix,. First, I want to know if there is a simpler way by just buying one for an original. I contacted Winchester Bob (there's two of them by the way) on the east coast. He lists 3 different styles and he didn't know whether any would fit but asked me to send the parts. Hhmm! I looked at the MGW website and they show no replacement parts for the Winchester breechblock but do for the Browning. Does anybody know if they are interchangeable in case I need to replace one that I may mess up?
    hmmm dunno about sending my firing pin away for comparison - might never see it again!
    Winchester Bob in Maine was where I looked
    Homestead parts also advertises but out of stock at the moment
    Heres the homestead parts picture they list it as "fits all 1886 models"
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1886 firing pin.jpg 
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    I checked bolt dimensions of my Browning 71 against my chiappa 86 (sposed to be a carbon copy of the original) same length - same positioning of everything except locking lug slots in the bolt (I bet you could fit 71 bolt and locking lugs into an 1886 frame though) I can see no reason at all why the older style firing pin wont fit unless they made it a different diameter - they look the same but cant get an accurate measure without pulling the gun down. So - I would measure the diameter of your firing pin body and call him again - 30 bucks is cheap for the work involved in one offing these and its not a big risk - either that or just modify what you have (throw that little dog leg thing away and the other bit it mates with, make it into a solid pin) - compared to putting the gun back together - doing the mod is easy.

    forgot----Neither of my rifles has the little cross pin retainer at the rear underneath - but my 86 winchester catalog shows it - identical to the picture above.

  12. #32
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    Winchester Bob lists two firing pin styles for the '92. One is a "black powder" thick tip and the other is a "smokeless" thin tip. Not being a machinist, would one of these be a fittable part for the Miroku action?

    prs

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by prs View Post
    Winchester Bob lists two firing pin styles for the '92. One is a "black powder" thick tip and the other is a "smokeless" thin tip. Not being a machinist, would one of these be a fittable part for the Miroku action?

    prs
    Maybe I need to understand more to give a good answer but with regard to the FP size, it needs to be a good fit in the bolt face, so only one size will be a good fit.
    Perhaps these two are different in some other way than fit.
    Chill Wills

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by prs View Post
    Winchester Bob lists two firing pin styles for the '92. One is a "black powder" thick tip and the other is a "smokeless" thin tip. Not being a machinist, would one of these be a fittable part for the Miroku action?

    prs
    You would just about bet that the miroku would want the smokeless tip ?
    One of the tricks used in hotting up 92's used to be bushing the firing pin hole in the bolt face (like they do in the martini cadet for high pressure rounds) punctured primers are never fun!!!

  15. #35
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    The anime was called "Japan sinks 2020". Been watching too many anime series lately. Frank

  16. #36
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    What is the purpose of the dog leg piece on top of the firing pin? Does it retain the pin in the bolt or does it serve a different function?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sc0 View Post
    What is the purpose of the dog leg piece on top of the firing pin? Does it retain the pin in the bolt or does it serve a different function?
    I see you are not getting any replies so I will try. I was hoping an expert would answer. That I am not.
    Describing motion in text can be challenging to both write and understand. I'll do my best.

    In the first of the two pictures below the red arrow points to the "dog leg: part.
    Below that in the pic and to the right are all the parts that fit in the slot in picture two and or go in the hole in the back of the FP left side in pic two. You can see the cross pin holes clearly but not the 0.200" hole in the back side that intersects with the slot.

    Inventory of parts are:
    two cross pins
    one dogleg
    one tiny spring
    one thing-a-ma-jig black cylinder with cutouts - now know as the cylinder.
    With the rifle cocked and ready, ...to fire the hammer strikes the back of the cylinder which sticks out from the main body of the firing pin. The cylinder moves forward compressing the tiny spring and pivots the back of dogleg down into the slot. So at this point the energy goes two directions. With the tiny spring compressed, forward energy propels the main firing pin body forward hitting the primer.
    IF the dogleg does not retract, the main body of the firing pin is held from going forward and striking the primer.
    I am guessing that is the mess the lawyers wanted to prevent accidental discharges.

    Okay! here is the problem. The firing pin main body only moves forward IF the little ketch (the top bump on the dogleg) moves down in time to allow the main body of the firing pin to go forward. If not the FP is locked up. If for any reason like dirt, burs, poor fitting parts, gummed up oil, you name it, the ketch does not retract enough or maybe in time, the rifle does not fire (FTF). When that happens, the main firing pin body receives reduced energy transfer or like happened to my rifle , light hits over time turned into no hits and complete failure to fire.

    There is a very good chance that if you simply filed off the little ketch (red arrow) and made the top line smooth, and all the original parts remained, the problem would go away.

    However, having had mine apart a few times trying to fix the light hit issue I just chose to make the firing pin into a solid unit that can be undone and returned.

    Hopefully this is the end of the FTF issues with this rifle for all time.

    I hope that helps.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails textresizedDSCF4101.jpg   resizedDSCF4104.jpg  
    Last edited by Chill Wills; 07-27-2020 at 05:52 PM.
    Chill Wills

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    I see you are not getting any replies so I will try. I was hoping an expert would answer. That I am not.
    Describing motion in text can be challenging to both write and understand. I'll do my best.

    In the first of the two pictures below the red arrow points to the "dog leg: part.
    Below that in the pic and to the right are all the parts that fit in the slot in picture two and or go in the hole in the back of the FP left side in pic two. You can see the cross pin holes clearly but not the 0.200" hole in the back side that intersects with the slot.

    Inventory of parts are:
    two cross pins
    one dogleg
    one tiny spring
    one thing-a-ma-jig black cylinder with cutouts - now know as the cylinder.
    With the rifle cocked and ready, ...to fire the hammer strikes the back of the cylinder which sticks out from the main body of the firing pin. The cylinder moves forward compressing the tiny spring and pivots the back of dogleg down into the slot. So at this point the energy goes two directions. With the tiny spring compressed, forward energy propels the main firing pin body forward hitting the primer.
    IF the dogleg does not retract, the main body of the firing pin is held from going forward and striking the primer.
    I am guessing that is the mess the lawyers wanted to prevent accidental discharges.

    Okay! here is the problem. The firing pin main body only moves forward IF the little ketch (the top bump on the dogleg) moves down in time to allow the main body of the firing pin to go forward. If not the FP is locked up. If for any reason like dirt, burs, poor fitting parts, gummed up oil, you name it, the ketch does not retract enough or maybe in time, the rifle does not fire (FTF). When that happens, the main firing pin body receives reduced energy transfer or like happened to my rifle , light hits over time turned into no hits and complete failure to fire.

    There is a very good chance that if you simply filed off the little ketch (red arrow) and made the top line smooth, and all the original parts remained, the problem would go away.

    However, having had mine apart a few times trying to fix the light hit issue I just chose to make the firing pin into a solid unit that can be undone and returned.

    Hopefully this is the end of the FTF issues with this rifle for all time.

    I hope that helps.
    I have been watching this also - wondering whether I have got this figured out right or not
    When I modified mine I just looked at those little pieces and compared to an original 71 pin (picture) and decided pretty quick that those bits belonged in my spares bin. Making the solid pin was easy

    So ? At first I thought to agree with filing off that little ketch bit would make it work - but now I changed my mind (maybe) I think that little dogleg bit engages with a notch in the cylinder piece to transfer forward impetus to the firing pin body - so if we file it off we got no engagement and no strike, FTF becomes permanent. ?

    Getting curiouser about this but not yet at the point where I want to dismantle my perfectly functional 71 to prove for sure why it didnt work - I know it didnt fire - I fixed it - now it does fire --------------------

    If we filed off the bit that sticks outside the line of the firing pin I reckon that would fix it but I reckon would need to leave the other end that is the internal dogleg -----solid pin conversion is easy, it works 100%,

    CW has done a great job posting the pics that show what to do to fix this and the fact that winchester bob is making spare firing pins for thirty bucks points to a common problem - its not just a couple of these guns doing it -----and I go back to one of my earlier thoughts - what if ? the first time this happened was with a sour tempered grizzly head on at fifteen yards ? .....unintended consequences of politically inspired actions huh!

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    I shoot some of the Browning/Win BPCRs and I have had a few of the lever guns on my wish list too.
    The 1885 Highwall in .32-40 apparently is a vapor ware rifle in their catalog.
    So I would advise searching an outlet like Gun Broker for guns for sale that really do exist.
    The rifles in the Browning/Winchester Catalogs do not necessarily exist. They may only be marketing photos.
    EDG

  20. #40
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    The discussion and pics of the firing pin fix deserve their own thread and then made into a sticky for future reference. It would be sweet if someone would try the $30 firing pin fix that Indian Joe suggested.



    mickbr - you need to understand that in Oz when it comes to Winchester imports, we only ever get the left overs of what doesn’t sell in the US. That applies to bolt actions as well as leverguns. When they were first released the Browning 71’s were a sales flop in the US. That’s when we got some. When the Win BB94’s in 375 weren’t selling well in the US they were imported in large numbers into Oz. When the the gaudy limited edition TR 1895’s weren’t selling in the US we saw some of those in Oz. etc etc.

    If there is something you really want you need to look at a personal import. That’s become really expensive lately and air freight with COVID has gone nuts. However, with the recent US export rule changes, the costs should reduce eventually, but it might take some time.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check