BP paper patched bullets in .45-70 lever gun

[BrentD]

Well, I feel I am using a good sized grease cookie. Those felt wads soaked up a lot of lube. They are easily 1/8" thick, probably quite a bit more -I did not measure them..

I'll try the wads without the extra lube - they are the same wads that I use in cap and ball revolvers, from BACO. I don't know why that would work, except that perhaps lube attracts and holds fouling that would otherwise blow out. I don't think this idea has a lot o merit, but I'll try it.

And I'll try magnum primers and a few other batches of powder. Something will work eventually.

[Don McDowell]

Bump that OE charge up to 72 grs, and try a rp 9 1/2 primer.

[Lead pot]

Brent I know you well enough to know that your love for the PP bullets is as strong as mine.
I have been working with my Marlin 95 and the 444 shooting dirty using the PP bullets and from time to time at 130 yards I have seen 2 MOA holes but not consistent, more like 2.5-3.
The problem I see mostly is the patch getting rolled back when feeding the chamber this is a problem with follow up shots. The tapered bullet lets me shoot dirty in the 95 like the Gibbs lets me do this but the down fall is they take up to much case for powder and as they are I'm leary of loading them in the tube because of the nose design setting off a chain reaction but I can single load them just dropping them in the chamber and closing the breach and shoot dirty for quite a few rounds fired. I haven't done this jet but I'm going to clamp the mould in the mill and cut the nose flat (the mould is a base pour) so I can use it in the 95.
If you can get two shots off using PP I would load some like the Lyman 121 PH for follow up. Those I can empty the tube as fast as I can lever the action and the accuracy is there using them.
The Lyman drops them a little too small in diameter so I had two custom moulds made one lighter and they work.
Your using a parchment paper over the powder is a plus.mI do that because it softens the lube fast so you don't see a lube wad down range that looks unused. It's no good on the ground, it does more good left in the bore.

The left is a PP I use in the 444 Marlin and the right is the custom 121.
I can send you the 121 for you to cast a bunch to try them.........Kurt
Attachment 264762

[BrentD]

Curt, what does that 121 weigh? I might have this mould or one like it. I have a mould that came with a Gibbs. It is about a 460 gr bullet. A bit too long but might work. I'll have to dig it out.

I was looking at a BACO 410 grn mould or there about. Might be 406. Anyway, it w as .456", which I thought might be advantageous in a fouled bore. It comes in .458 as well. It had a nice big meplat too. Here we go. I'd love to have a paper patch mould just like this.


What are you using for powder and lube?

[Lead pot]

Brent,

The long one weights 470 gr and its 1.194" long .459" diameter and with one band exposed it's in the case .724.
The short one weight is 451 gr at 1,143" long .459" dia one exposed band .610" in the case.
I don't have any of the Lyman cast so I cant tell you the weight or length off the top of my head but mine drop out at .456" diameter.
I almost had one bought that was a original Pope made Ideal adjustable 457121 but it got out of my price range.
It would cast 215g, 250g, 295g, 340g, 385g, 430g, 475g

My load with the short bullet was 65 gr of 3F OE or 66 gr of 3F Swiss.
62 gr 2F OE

Lube is a mix of Soy wax and Vaseline to the hardness I used on the soft side.

[sharpsguy]

Brent, if that new Badger barrel is an 18 twist or faster, you won't get much better than what you are getting accuracy wise with a 410 grain bullet. It's too short to shoot well with that twist. Get a bullet 1.25 inches long rather than the 1.1 you are trying, and it will work.

[John Boy]

The 45-70 is not a paper patch calibre. Never was.

http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitari...6_item_120.htm

[PHyrbird]

Just an idea, I swage .451. In pure lead with 2 wraps of onion skin paper they shoot to a 3" group at 100 with iron sights. Try it U'll like it.

[BrentD]

Just an idea, I swage .451. In pure lead with 2 wraps of onion skin paper they shoot to a 3" group at 100 with iron sights. Try it U'll like it.

yes, I used to do that. But it's not quite that simple. At least not that I've found. It's the fouling issue that I have to overcome. What powder do you use?

[BrentD]

Brent, if that new Badger barrel is an 18 twist or faster, you won't get much better than what you are getting accuracy wise with a 410 grain bullet. It's too short to shoot well with that twist. Get a bullet 1.25 inches long rather than the 1.1 you are trying, and it will work.

That bullet will shoot under 2.5" at 200 meters every time in my highwall with 18" twist. It's not bullet length.

[BrentD]

I shot these two targets today. @100 yds, off the bench, first shot clean barrel, next three dirty. (Marlin 1895 made in 1899, but rebarreled). Bullet was a 410 gr, .453", 40:1 paper patch sized about halfway down the bullet to .448"

I think a guy could kill a bear this way.

[Lead pot]

I don't think that you don't have to look anything better.

[BrentD]

I've got to get it to repeat. But I'll be happy all day long if it keeps shooting like that. Black bears in AK and antelope in WY don't have a chance. Might use it on mule deer too. But it's gotta repeat.

[dave roelle]

Outstanding Brent
We will need hunt pics ��

[indian joe]

Brent
I bet everybody knew you would figure this out - what was it made the difference ? - might be valuable info for some fellers here.....

Have never been a marlin fan but that picture you posted of the old gun atop the fence post could change a blokes mind ! just perfect proportions.

[BrentD]

indian joe, I had help of course. I have been waffling about dual diameter bullets, but here was an opportunity try and I didn't have one handy. Instead, I wrapped a .443" bullet to .453 with somewhat thicker paper (Bienfang 360). Then shoved it about 1/2 way into a .448" Lee push-through sizing die. This gave me about 1/3 of the shank in .448 followed by a LONG taper to the last 1/3rd that was 0.453". Then I inserted a rod into the top of the die and beat the bullet out backwards. Really.

I seated them to 2.72" or thereabouts and gave them a strong taper crimp. Worked like a charm. The same loads with the entire bullet sized to 0.450" shot extremely poorly and would barely chamber a second shot, never mind a 3rd or 4th. Accuracy with two 2-shot groups (1 clean, 1 dirty; repeat) was about 6-7 MOA

To be honest this is far better than I expected and I do not expect it to repeat quite this good, but maybe close... I can hope.

[indian joe]

indian joe, I had help of course. I have been waffling about dual diameter bullets, but here was an opportunity try and I didn't have one handy. Instead, I wrapped a .443" bullet to .453 with somewhat thicker paper (Bienfang 360). Then shoved it about 1/2 way into a .448" Lee push-through sizing die. This gave me about 1/3 of the shank in .448 followed by a LONG taper to the last 1/3rd that was 0.453". Then I inserted a rod into the top of the die and beat the bullet out backwards. Really.

I seated them to 2.72" or thereabouts and gave them a strong taper crimp. Worked like a charm. The same loads with the entire bullet sized to 0.450" shot extremely poorly and would barely chamber a second shot, never mind a 3rd or 4th. Accuracy with two 2-shot groups (1 clean, 1 dirty; repeat) was about 6-7 MOA

To be honest this is far better than I expected and I do not expect it to repeat quite this good, but maybe close... I can hope.

So you be crimping onto the swaged .448 section of the shank?

[BrentD]

ij,
I'm crimping a little behind that along the taper from .448 to .453, but remember this is a taper crimp, not a roll crimp, so it happens along a substantial length of the neck of the case.

We need to get you up to speed with Marlins too. They beat Winchesters in about six ways. Most especially if you are shooting black powder. Simple, strong, easy to work on, easy to strip and clean from the breech. If you want to shoot black, you want to use the 1890 series of Marlins every time.

[Chill Wills]

ij,

We need to get you up to speed with Marlins too. They beat Winchesters in about six ways. Most especially if you are shooting black powder. Simple, strong, easy to work on, easy to strip and clean from the breech. If you want to shoot black, you want to use the 1890 series of Marlins every time.

That is funny! And true too.
I have Winchesters and enjoy them a lot, and shoot them with black.
If I had known 40 years ago what I know now, I sure would have acquired a lot more Marlins along the way!
I can't remember which all models LL Hepburn designed after leaving Remington, but it was a good many of them. John Browning gets a lot of credit as a design genius, and rightfully so. However, Hepburn, even standing in Browning's shadow was not piker. The old Marlin's are great rifles.

Sorry for the OT detour.
By the way, I have been following your progress. Looking like you are on to making this work.
One question. Maybe I missed it in the past posts. Is there any chance that the PP rounds you have today can hook a leading edge and be pulled off or injured on the way from the mag tube, up the carrier and into the chamber?

I guess I wont be seeing you in a few weeks. Rough year for all of us. Stay safe.

[indian joe]

ij,
I'm crimping a little behind that along the taper from .448 to .453, but remember this is a taper crimp, not a roll crimp, so it happens along a substantial length of the neck of the case.

We need to get you up to speed with Marlins too. They beat Winchesters in about six ways. Most especially if you are shooting black powder. Simple, strong, easy to work on, easy to strip and clean from the breech. If you want to shoot black, you want to use the 1890 series of Marlins every time.

Ahhh I think I was infected with the W bug at birth, too late to change now. Six ways ??? nah ............cleaning not an issue (lots of blokes make a big issue out of breech cleaning - I never understood that - its a non issue if you use a decent muzzle protector on the cleaning rod) , scope ruins the look of any lever gun, and the carryability, I like the sound of empty brass rolling off me hatbrim, .........................all that said that old girl of yours could nearly swing me............