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Thread: BP paper patched bullets in .45-70 lever gun

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    BP paper patched bullets in .45-70 lever gun

    This is the third post about this gun. The first two didn't take for some reason. But one more time.

    I'm trying to shoot 3 blackpowder cartridges with paper patched bullets into 2 MOA at 200 yds. At least that is the goal. If I can do it, I'll take this rifle bear hunting in Alaska next spring. I am posting to this forum instead of the paper patch forum because there are more lever gunners here and lever guns are the issue more than paper patches.

    The gun is a square bolt Marlin 1895 made in about 1899. It has been resurrected from the grave and now sports a new 26" full octagon, Badger barrel. So barrel condition is not a factor. It has many other new parts as well.

    The powder charges I shot yesterday were 68, 70, and 72gr of Swiss 3fg and 68 gr of 1.5 OE. I seated an Ox Yoke felt wad that had been soaked in beeswax, mutton tallow, sperm oil lube. A 0.03" LDPE wad was placed above that and everything was compressed to allow a 410 gr 40:1 FN round nose bullet patched to .450" to be seated and taper crimped on top. OAL length was 2.76". I could go as much as 2.86" in a clean bore as the bullet slides nicely into a clean bore, and will cycle through the action just fine. However, I elected to go shorter because I really want to shoot dirty here.

    For these loads, I was going to fire 4 shots of each as a starting point to see if there was any hint of accuracy. However, loading even the second shot was a bit difficult without blowing in the barrel, and the third was basically a no go, though I could force it if I really wanted. So, I revised to shooting two 2-shot groups with each load. The first shot from a cleaned barrel and the second after blowing the barrel to soften the fouling slightly. Obviously, this doesn't work for bear hunting but it gets me started in the search for and acceptable level of accuracy.

    The end result was more like 4" than my desired 2" at 100 yds. All the loads were about equally bad.

    Next time I will shorten up my OAL a bit, but I don't think that will turn the rifle into a tack driver.

    So for you lever gunners out there, what do you do to keep your guns running with BP loads? At one time, BP only was the norm for these rifles, but what is the trick?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    This is the third post about this gun. The first two didn't take for some reason. But one more time.

    I'm trying to shoot 3 blackpowder cartridges with paper patched bullets into 2 MOA at 200 yds. At least that is the goal. If I can do it, I'll take this rifle bear hunting in Alaska next spring. I am posting to this forum instead of the paper patch forum because there are more lever gunners here and lever guns are the issue more than paper patches.

    The gun is a square bolt Marlin 1895 made in about 1899. It has been resurrected from the grave and now sports a new 26" full octagon, Badger barrel. So barrel condition is not a factor. It has many other new parts as well.

    The powder charges I shot yesterday were 68, 70, and 72gr of Swiss 3fg and 68 gr of 1.5 OE. I seated an Ox Yoke felt wad that had been soaked in beeswax, mutton tallow, sperm oil lube. A 0.03" LDPE wad was placed above that and everything was compressed to allow a 410 gr 40:1 FN round nose bullet patched to .450" to be seated and taper crimped on top. OAL length was 2.76". I could go as much as 2.86" in a clean bore as the bullet slides nicely into a clean bore, and will cycle through the action just fine. However, I elected to go shorter because I really want to shoot dirty here.

    For these loads, I was going to fire 4 shots of each as a starting point to see if there was any hint of accuracy. However, loading even the second shot was a bit difficult without blowing in the barrel, and the third was basically a no go, though I could force it if I really wanted. So, I revised to shooting two 2-shot groups with each load. The first shot from a cleaned barrel and the second after blowing the barrel to soften the fouling slightly. Obviously, this doesn't work for bear hunting but it gets me started in the search for and acceptable level of accuracy.

    The end result was more like 4" than my desired 2" at 100 yds. All the loads were about equally bad.

    Next time I will shorten up my OAL a bit, but I don't think that will turn the rifle into a tack driver.

    So for you lever gunners out there, what do you do to keep your guns running with BP loads? At one time, BP only was the norm for these rifles, but what is the trick?
    Brent
    Did you make a typo here ? up top you are asking for 2 MOA at 200yards ....thats 4"? ...... further down you say 2" at 100 yards
    we know the shooter here is top notch but 2MOA with black is stretching most lever guns - I have done it a few times and sneaked inside it on a couple of occasions - shooting dirty with a grease boolit .....clean between shots has been a no deal for me from the start - never gonna be king of the long range game but I have done plenty of shooting good enough for what you are planning .
    I dont reckon any of the powders we have today are even close to as clean burning as the good stuff they had in the old days (the way we load and shoot) ...........
    Most blokes on here are using what I regard as gentle / light compression - your load says no to that - but I dont reckon you have near enough lube in that load to shoot dirty.
    With a grease boolit its the lube grooves that make all the difference - try a pure lube disk an eigth inch thick - thats gonna need a good overpowder wad as well as your LDPE boolit wad
    My uberti 76 will walk shots if I get the shot cadence wrong (common problem with lever guns - specially long barrels with full mag) - can rip three or four out of it quick - by then the bear or the gunner is done for I spose......
    Theres a feller on the CAS city forum does some fine shooting with lever guns "Dusty Texian" you might get a tip or two from him that will help - I believe he has shot PP in levers ...................

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Brent
    Did you make a typo here ? up top you are asking for 2 MOA at 200yards ....thats 4"? ...... further down you say 2" at 100 yards
    we know the shooter here is top notch but 2MOA with black is stretching most lever guns - I have done it a few times and sneaked inside it on a couple of occasions - shooting dirty with a grease boolit .....clean between shots has been a no deal for me from the start - never gonna be king of the long range game but I have done plenty of shooting good enough for what you are planning .
    I dont reckon any of the powders we have today are even close to as clean burning as the good stuff they had in the old days (the way we load and shoot) ...........
    Most blokes on here are using what I regard as gentle / light compression - your load says no to that - but I dont reckon you have near enough lube in that load to shoot dirty.
    With a grease boolit its the lube grooves that make all the difference - try a pure lube disk an eigth inch thick - thats gonna need a good overpowder wad as well as your LDPE boolit wad
    My uberti 76 will walk shots if I get the shot cadence wrong (common problem with lever guns - specially long barrels with full mag) - can rip three or four out of it quick - by then the bear or the gunner is done for I spose......
    Theres a feller on the CAS city forum does some fine shooting with lever guns "Dusty Texian" you might get a tip or two from him that will help - I believe he has shot PP in levers ...................
    I was just being confusing. I would like 4" at 200 ultimately. Bears where we are hunting may require 200 yd shots according to those that have experience there. The goal is to make sure they die before they get back into the devil's club which may be only 10-20 yds away. But for now, I'm testing at 100 because it's easier to do. If I can't get there at 100, I won't get there at 200. Perhaps 2 MOA is too stringent, but I like to think optimistically. 3 MOA might be good enough. I'll see how I feel about that when and if I get there.

    The felt wads, after I have lubed them are nearly solid blocks of lube. I normally use straight lube cookies w/o the felts but this time I thought I would try them since many folks seem to like them. I do not put thick over powder wads between lube and powder, as the following wad will just squeegee the lube right out as fast as it is laid down. The wads down range look almost new as a result. So, if I use anything between lube and powder it is a thin piece of parchment paper or a "wad" cut from a plastic sandwich bag or similar flimsy material

    Not to worried about the bear ripping on me, but I figure 3 shots is about all I can expect before that bear is either down for good or in the timber. Loading 5 or 6 or 7 in the tube will do me no good.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    The 45-70 is not a paper patch calibre. Never was.
    There is no throat cut in the chamber so you would need to be ultra careful with the length of the patch protruding I think.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I would test several things here. Add a grease cookie about 1/16"-5/32" thick over a heavy wad then 2 tracing paper or a wax paper wad under the bullets. Then hand seat the bullet and size mouth down around it. When firing use a nylon chamber brush look for paper rings in the chamber some leads / throats will pull a ring from the paper as it expands and is sized down.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    If I were doing it, which I do for cowboy silhouette using my 1895cb, I'd use a .451 bullet and patch it to .460. Load about 5 grains of imr4227 on the primer and 65 grains of 2f BP. A newspaper wad, compress to the right height, a .060 ldpe wad, and seat the bullet with no neck tension. Taper crimp just enough to hold it together. By duplex loading I can shoot as much as I want, never foul out, and accuracy is only limited by my eyesight but 4 inches at 200M is no problem.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I'll use a straight lube wad next time. Not a problem to make them in many thickness with my extruder, but I'm skeptical that it will suffice. Then again, I don't have any better ideas.

    Bullets are all hand seated. No rings.

  8. #8
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    Nobade. I know about duplexing but I won't do that. No point in it. Might just as well shoot straight smokeless. I've shot my .38-55 with black at the CLA Nationals in Raton a few times. I'm not a real threat there, but I used grease groove bullets.

    Back in the day, these guns were shot with straight blackpowder - and groove bullets, I admit.

    Well onwards. Might try a bigger bullet seated very deep. Start running out of case capacity when I do that with a decently sized bullet.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    Nobade. I know about duplexing but I won't do that. No point in it. Might just as well shoot straight smokeless. I've shot my .38-55 with black at the CLA Nationals in Raton a few times. I'm not a real threat there, but I used grease groove bullets.

    Back in the day, these guns were shot with straight blackpowder - and groove bullets, I admit.

    Well onwards. Might try a bigger bullet seated very deep. Start running out of case capacity when I do that with a decently sized bullet.
    Brent its doable with Grease boolits - five at 100yards - shot dirty - how important is it to you to get that bear with a PP ?????
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is not a regular occurrence by any means but the lever gun and the load is up to it - ES under 10FPS for a string of ten without cleaning
    Last edited by indian joe; 07-12-2020 at 12:34 AM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy dave roelle's Avatar
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    How about two loads
    First the Paper Patch, followed by grease grooved loads ��

    Dave

  11. #11
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    Dave, that may be a good back up plan. I'd have to get a better gg mould than the one I have now.

    Have any of you experimented with using magnum primers to burn out the fouling better? Perhaps they wouldn't make any difference but it is just a random thought that occurred to me last night.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy dave roelle's Avatar
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    I have never chased bears around the north country

    I have collected some big Texas hogs
    Shooting paper patched creedmore bullets with a machined hollow point

  13. #13
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    perhaps experiment with much bigger (thicker) cookies? more grease might do it, but at the expense of powder space.

  14. #14
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    Hogs count! Did you do it with a lever gun?

    I've killed countless big game animals with singleshots and paper patched bullets, but not with a multishooter like a 95 Marlin. This is a cool ol' gun and it deserves to go hunting. It has been through a couple of near-death experiences, but is back like a phoenix for one more go-round.


  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    My goodness that's a purty picture.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Good Cheer, wouldn't it look so much better beside a big bear on the tidal rocks of Southeast Alaska?

  17. #17
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    I like PP bullets and use them exclusively in my .30 Krag and .30-06 M95 Winchesters but in the .45-70 I would stay with grease groove bullets for serious hunting. Tilting the windmill is fun on the range but don't fool around when you are killing.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy dave roelle's Avatar
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    Hi Brent

    I have with GG bullets, modern Marlin lever gun 45-70

    Things are close in the blackbrush thickets here so 50 yard accuracy is all I needed

    Shooting GG Hollow points in front of 72 gr Swiss 1 1/2

    Even big pigs are bang flop

    Dave

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Might try the Muzzleloader Original dry lubed felt wads, they are typically used in cap and ball revolvers, but work well in my bpcr's. 44 cal for the 44 and 45 caliber rifles, and the 38 are a good fit in the 40caliber rifles.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  20. #20
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    I find using a good sized grease cookie helps a lot for reloading, but as Rfd said, you give up powder space.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check