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Thread: Range Lead EQUALS 20:1 ?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Range Lead EQUALS 20:1 ?

    I have range lead with a brinelled hardness of 10-11. is this the same hardness as 20:1 mix hardness or is there something im not considering? im trying to avoid buying lead. Thanks

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    If the range lead is mostly bullet cores from jacketed ammo and .22 rimfire, it will probably be 2-3 percent antimony with almost no tin. If there is lead from commercial hardcast bullets, then you may have enough tin in the mix to get reasonable fill-out. The best thing is to try casting some and see if you get well filled out bullets. It is likely that you will need to sweeten the melt with about 1% tin to get good bullets.
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  3. #3
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    To add to Outpost75's post; you can not determine the alloy content of an unknown alloy by BHN measurement.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    To add to Outpost75's post; you can not determine the alloy content of an unknown alloy by BHN measurement.
    I think your missing my point. im not trying to discover the melt content and how much of each element but from a stand point of the bullet obturating for use in a shapes rifle. if the hardness is the same or very close to 20:1 or do I really need to buy from someone who sells 20:1 mix?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnabus View Post
    I think your missing my point. im not trying to discover the melt content and how much of each element but from a stand point of the bullet obturating for use in a shapes rifle. if the hardness is the same or very close to 20:1 or do I really need to buy from someone who sells 20:1 mix?
    If you trust your BHN test method and 10-11 is what you need cast some up. If your bullets are not dropping as well out of the mold you need to figure out why.
    There are several "alloys" in the 10-11 hardness range.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Try it first. I have used range lead for many years and have had no problems but this is with short handgun bullets. Longer bullets may present a problem but you won't know until you try, both when casting and shooting some. If you only need a small amount of tin solder is a good source. FWIW have cast the LEE 45-200 SWC for my 1911 with both range lead and an alloy mixed to about COWW and 1% tin and if there was any difference either in casting or shooting I couldn't see it.

  7. #7
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    It all depends on what was shot at the range!

    A bunch of commercial casts will take you up around 15-16

    A bunch of J-Words much lower.

    the rifle could get you 20 ish

    45 cap. 38 spcl down to 8-10

    There is no way to tell

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnabus View Post
    I think your missing my point. im not trying to discover the melt content and how much of each element but from a stand point of the bullet obturating for use in a shapes rifle. if the hardness is the same or very close to 20:1 or do I really need to buy from someone who sells 20:1 mix?
    I think the replies are made with the very best intent but have gotten off into the weeds. Exact hardness is not needed unless Paperpatch BPCR bullets of the bore diameter type are used. In that case you may need an exact hardness made with Pb-Sn.

    My guess is you are shooting grease groove bullets (BPCR) and here a good fit trumps alloy or hardness. Some of the newer design bullets with long unsupported noses need 16-1 or a three alloy Pb-Sn-SB that gets you equal to 16-1 hardness or even greater. I use most often use a Pb-Sn-Sb alloy for BPCR because it is available for a very low cost and most often free yet still works very well. In my most demanding accuracy loads I can not tell the difference.

    So the answer is YES! you can successfully shoot your range scrap and with accuracy I might add. You can...IF the other items like bullet design and fit are correct.

    Your point about obturation becomes moot if the as cast bullet is large enough to fit well in the case/chamber/throat. Store bought 20-1 is just the easy way to get lead that works well for traditional design bullets. Range source lead can be just as good.
    You mostly need to give it a try and experiment.
    That was a good question.
    Last edited by Chill Wills; 07-07-2020 at 03:16 PM. Reason: fix some typos
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  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conditor22 View Post
    It all depends on what was shot at the range!

    A bunch of commercial casts will take you up around 15-16

    A bunch of J-Words much lower.

    the rifle could get you 20 ish

    45 cap. 38 spcl down to 8-10

    There is no way to tell
    ^^^This^^^ “Range Lead” is a nearly meaningless term as far as composition is concerned... it’s about like saying “soil composition;” it varies from here to there. The comments people have made on this thread tell you what you need to know. You will have to take your alloy and either have it scientifically tested (“laser gun,” etc) or just cast some up and test them practically for your own application. Anything else is just a poor guess.

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  10. #10
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    ^^^^^ Yep, it's why I only use lead of a known composition (COWW's, linotype, pure, etc.).

    Don
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnabus View Post
    I think your missing my point. im not trying to discover the melt content and how much of each element but from a stand point of the bullet obturating for use in a shapes rifle. if the hardness is the same or very close to 20:1 or do I really need to buy from someone who sells 20:1 mix?
    BHN is 1/2 of "hardness". Malleability is the other half. A bullet with antimony in it but having the same BHN as 20-1 alloy will not be as malleable. It will not obturate as well, especially if using BP. May be okay for smokeless loads though with appropriate lube. Or if using PPing it may not obturate as intended depending on the loads time/pressure curve.

    BTW; had you included this 2nd post in the first your point would have been explained and understood. No problem though as we're getting there. Chill Wills makes some good points. What kind of load are you wanting for the Sharps?
    Larry Gibson

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  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by fouronesix View Post
    It is ALWAYS much more problematic to soften a quantity of lead than to harden it.
    How is adding some pure lead to whatever lead alloy you have "problematic"?

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  13. #13
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    USSR: One example is, if you have some hard lead that has a lot of antimony in it but not very much tin then softening with pure will reduce the tin even more, so some may have to be added to cast properly. Not a big deal, changing alloy can be problematic, no matter which direction you are going.

  14. #14
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    I fail to see anything problematic with making an existing alloy either harder or softer. You simply add whatever is needed to bring the Pb/Sb/Sn ratio into your desired range. I have linotype to make an alloy harder and solder if extra tin is needed, and pure lead to make an alloy softer and solder if extra tin is needed. This ain't rocket science.

    Don
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSR View Post
    I fail to see anything problematic with making an existing alloy either harder or softer. You simply add whatever is needed to bring the Pb/Sb/Sn ratio into your desired range. I have linotype to make an alloy harder and solder if extra tin is needed, and pure lead to make an alloy softer and solder if extra tin is needed. This ain't rocket science.

    Don
    Making lead softer was a problem for me. I get range scrap for just my labor but I have to buy pure lead.

    I would love it if I could capture some of the tin and antimony from my range scrap and make it softer and use that sweetener to make other lead harder.

    My range scrap is BHN of about 8. I need lead that is almost pure for cap and ball revolvers and muzzleloaders. I need lead that is harder for a lot of other applications. I understand that I have to bite the bullet and spend money for sweeteners for the harder alloy but it kind of chafes that the only way to make that range scrap softer is to add pure lead and to mix it with enough pure to make it softer will never make it as soft as pure.

    Tim
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  16. #16
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    Tim,

    I buy all my lead at the local scrap yard. Lead sheathing and lead pipe is essentially pure lead. I pay 80 cents a pound for it. Sure, you get your range scrap for free, but with most things in life, you've got to lay out some $$$ to get what you want.

    Don
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  17. #17
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    Hahah. Yup I always laugh when I read "RANGE LEAD IS 10 bhn". As if a range in Arizona has identical ammo shot as does Bangor, Maine and Tallahassee Florida...

    Maybe just maybe if you amassed every and all and tested and averaged that might be a true number. But no one has done this and no one is going to. So smelt your cash into ingots and make a bullet and TEST IT! THAT is as hard as it is!! Adjust according to your needs.

    With some luck you will have a johnny reloader with tons of lino and he shoots your range regularly. You find YOUR range lead is near 20bhn. More realistic is far far lower.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    To add to Outpost75's post; you can not determine the alloy content of an unknown alloy by BHN measurement.
    While this is true, we will know that an alloy that is 8-9bhn has a higher lead content.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwlongshot View Post
    Hahah. Yup I always laugh when I read "RANGE LEAD IS 10 bhn". As if a range in Arizona has identical ammo shot as does Bangor, Maine and Tallahassee Florida...

    Maybe just maybe if you amassed every and all and tested and averaged that might be a true number. But no one has done this and no one is going to. So smelt your cash into ingots and make a bullet and TEST IT! THAT is as hard as it is!! Adjust according to your needs.

    With some luck you will have a johnny reloader with tons of lino and he shoots your range regularly. You find YOUR range lead is near 20bhn. More realistic is far far lower.

    CW
    This is very true, but I scavenge from a couple diff outdoor ranges & then melt it all together. It comes on around 9-10bhn, pretty consistently.
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  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Since I have too much time on my hands I sort range lead into jacketed, cast, and plated/misc. bullets. I smelt separately and mark the ingots as to what they are. I found jacketed cores too soft for even pistol bullets, but mixed 50/50 with cast bullets it produces good bullets with hardness adequate for pistol loads. I cast rifle bullets from the cast bullet metal. The hardness of plated bullets ranges from soft to hard so I end up not using as much of it.

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