Suggestions: 44-40 Black Power. Big Bore, Big Chamber

[littlef]

I have a recenty acquired a Winchester 1873 in 44-40, manufactured in 1890. Grooves measure .4255. Lands measure: .433. The chamber measures to .44 or larger. Its not perfectly round, so on my chamber casting, the .444 was the narrowest measurement.

I just bought hollow base, .429, 222 grain bullets from buffalo arms. They are loaded up, but I haven't made it to the range yet. I'm trying to find better options. I've found a mold: accurate 43-210b 210 grain. I've read that if you use soft enough lead that it can obturate and fill the grooves. Sounds ambtious. Looking for suggestions

[Outpost75]

Accurate 43-200QL cast from 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals is exactly what you need.Attachment 264495

Cast chamber and size nose stop-ring to chamber throat diameter. Load 6 grains of Bullseye, TiteGroup or Trail Boss, or 36 grs.of Goex 3Fg with SPG lube if you prefer traditional.

You WILL be happy.

[littlef]

interesting -so, you are saying I should take the casts, size them down to my .444 chamber cast dimension? - what about the driving bands only being .428? - fyi: I plan on only using black powder/black powder substitutes.

[sharps4590]

Do you have the land and groove measurement reversed? The lands can't be larger than the groove diameter. Black powder will "bump up" soft cast bullets but given you throat dimension I don't believe that's a concern. I can't speak to any of the fake BP's other than Pyrodex will never be fired in any of my firearms.

I concur with Outpost. Nice looking rifle!

[Outpost75]

The 1 to 30 alloy will bump up with black or a fast burning pistol powder like Bullseye. Size nose to throat diameter, driving bands will remain untouched, as-cast.

[Dave T]

I'll join the "nice rifle" chorus. And the advice you've been given (except for that weird smokeless stuff - lol) is all good.

Dave

[littlef]

yes sharps, I reverse the land/groove measurments. - good call. thanks on the compliments to the rifle. Its was dirty, and had a little surface rust when i got it. You could tell the typical field type maintenance had been done, but it hadn't had a full tear down in a long time. I took it down to frame, and boiled everything for an hour then carded it. I'm pretty happy with it. Can't wait to take it to the range and test it out. -- glad to hear you concur with outpost.

[littlef]

I'll join the "nice rifle" chorus. And the advice you've been given (except for that weird smokeless stuff - lol) is all good.

Dave

Thank you very much sir.

[littlef]

Thank to everyone for their input. Hopefully, I'll be about to take it to the range this weekend, and I'll test out the hollow base bullets I got from buffalo arms. I'll assess that data, but I anticipate seeing a new 430-200ql in my future. I'll post my progress as it develops.

[Savvy Jack]

accurate 43-200ql cast from 1 to 30 tin-lead from roto metals is exactly what you need.Attachment 264495

cast chamber and size nose stop-ring to chamber throat diameter. Load 6 grains of bullseye, titegroup or trail boss, or 36 grs.of goex 3fg with spg lube if you prefer traditional.

You will be happy.

what he said!!!

Try this article,
https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ester-73-bores


Attachment 264541 Attachment 264542 Attachment 264544

[Babbott213]

littlef, sounds like you have the same issue as myself. My 1873 dates to 1879. When I slugged my bore, it too measured out to .433”. My barrel is a five groove, so I had to wrap a 2mil shim around the slug, measure and then deduct 4mil to get my diameter. I just looked at the hollow base .429” bullets from Buffalo Arms today and looks like they’re out of stock. A couple of years ago I played around with some .433” bullets. They was a pain to get into the case, but they would chamber and shoot, but they was a solid base and I really would like to stick to a closer to traditional size for the rifle too. I plan on getting back on it as soon as I can though. I too only plan on shooting Black Powder through it. You can look back at some of my post and you can see some of the post that I’ve made about my rifle. Looking forward to seeing how your range time goes. What area do you live? I’m in Alabama myself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[littlef]

Hi Babbot123, thanks. I'll check out your posts, and see what I can absorb. I'm in Denver, CO. Looking forward to the weekend. Bringing a new toy to the range, always makes for a fun day.

[Babbott213]

Hi Babbot123, thanks. I'll check out your posts, and see what I can absorb. I'm in Denver, CO. Looking forward to the weekend. Bringing a new toy to the range, always makes for a fun day.

Ah, I have a good friend in Denver. He owns Alpha Defense Group there. He also does spray foam roofs and coatings which is how I met him a couple of years ago. Looking forward to hearing how the range time goes soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[littlef]

So last weekend, I took the 1873 out, and I put 50 rounds down range. It ran great with no issues. It took me a little bit to get used to the barleycorn sight. I learned I have to raise the front sight all the way up, and I need to be able to see the entire front sight Base in the bottom of the rear notch. Once I did that, it shot to point of aim at 50 yards and 100 yards. Interesting observation, The last 10-15 rounds or so started dropping. By round 45, I needed to aim about 6 inches up to hit in the black. Its certainly a fun rifle to shoot. velocity was fron 1036 to 1194 using a labradar unit. This was using the buffalo arms 222 gr hollow base and pyrodex ffg. I didn't measure the exact charge. I was using a new lyman black powder measurer. The initial amount I set wouldn't fit in the case, and then I just kept backing it down, till the charge fit with a little compression, so I'm not sure of what that actual charge volume was. Next, I plan on picking up the accurate 43-s00ql mold. I'll do a little more diligent measuring when I get to the stage. attached is a little youtube video from the range.
https://youtu.be/jKRd_hgZb14

[Wayne Smith]

For loading mine I made a compression die out of a spare (off eBay) bullet seating die. The seat stem fit the inside of the case closely and I filled the hollow with liquid steel. Viola - a compression die.

[littlef]

thats a pretty clever idea

[Savvy Jack]

Original dissected black powder cartridges showed an average of .21" powder compression, 40gr of a "sporting" black powder. If you are using a heavier than 200gr bullet with a deeper seating design, you may not can get .21" compression. Early semi-balloonhead cases held an extra 2gr of black powder than the Star Line cases I use in my loads.

Slightly tap your cases to settle the powder then use the compression die. Compress the powder no more than .21" or less so the bullet can be crimped. If it takes a LOT of pressure to compress, you can bulge the brass a little, then you know you went too far.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...d-by-john-kort

[indian joe]

So last weekend, I took the 1873 out, and I put 50 rounds down range. It ran great with no issues. It took me a little bit to get used to the barleycorn sight. I learned I have to raise the front sight all the way up, and I need to be able to see the entire front sight Base in the bottom of the rear notch. Once I did that, it shot to point of aim at 50 yards and 100 yards. Interesting observation, The last 10-15 rounds or so started dropping. By round 45, I needed to aim about 6 inches up to hit in the black. Its certainly a fun rifle to shoot. velocity was fron 1036 to 1194 using a labradar unit. This was using the buffalo arms 222 gr hollow base and pyrodex ffg. I didn't measure the exact charge. I was using a new lyman black powder measurer. The initial amount I set wouldn't fit in the case, and then I just kept backing it down, till the charge fit with a little compression, so I'm not sure of what that actual charge volume was. Next, I plan on picking up the accurate 43-s00ql mold. I'll do a little more diligent measuring when I get to the stage. attached is a little youtube video from the range.
https://youtu.be/jKRd_hgZb14

Watched the video - the best thing of this is to see a young feller shooting old guns - there is hope for the world after all!

[littlef]

I concurr. I used to go to the range regularly with his father, but last year his father passed away from cancer. Since then, we have been going to the range together. He's always up for going out and shooting when I acquire a new addition to the collection.

[sharps4590]

About a month ago, when I was REALLY bored from the whole covid thing, I worked up a BP load for my Uberti '73 in 44-40. My bullet was the Lee 210 gr. bullet cast of 25-1 and lubed with SPG. I drop tubed 35 grs. of Old Eynsford Fffg into the case and covered it with a .020 card wad then seated the bullet to give just a bit of compression. I never use a compression die. Oh, I used Magnum pistol primers. At 50 yards groups hovered around an inch. Next batch I used regular primers and the groups opened up to about 2 inches. Saw the same thing when working with BP in my Jeffrey Rook rifle.

That isn't like shooting an original with odd dimensions but the load might be worth trying.