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Thread: Beam powder scale + varget powder

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Beam powder scale + varget powder

    Can anyone recommend a balance beam scale that will show one grain of Varget being trickled in from a dead rest? My most sensitive scale takes three grains to move it. Thinking of reducing the contact area between the knives and bearings?

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy nhyrum's Avatar
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    There's a guy that used to tune beam scales. Not sure if he does anymore, last I heard, I think he had a few peoples scales for around a year. But if you're patient enough, you should be able to see that single kernel register. You just have to give the scale time to react to what is usually 2 hundredths to half a thousandth of a grain.

    Now if you open up past just beam scales, there are a few others that will resister a single kernel. But you pay for them, most are analytical grade laboratory balances. Then, there's the Prometheus, if you want the top of the heap mechanical scale. But you could buy a decent rifle and scope for what those cost.

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Boolit Mold
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    Redding #2 will detect one kernel of Varget out of the box. So will a Lee scale, but the Redding is a lot nicer to use.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy nhyrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohio73 View Post
    Redding #2 will detect one kernel of Varget out of the box. So will a Lee scale, but the Redding is a lot nicer to use.
    My ohaus 505 would detect a single kernel of h4350. You just have to watch it

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  5. #5
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    I've found the RCBS M500 to be about the most consistent of the current bunch - I've had several on the bench recently and all have performed well. In my opinion it has two fairly minor faults. Although the body is metal it's fairly light weight, this doesn't really effect the accuracy but adding weight to the base does make it more stable and feel more solid.
    The other problem, because the beam is printed both sides, it means the actual beam is around 1/4" away from the zero pointer so unless you look at the beam from exactly the same position every time it's possible to get a parallax reading error. - Easily remedied by using a cheap webcam system.

    Here's one I've been using recently - easily showing single kernels of varget.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master 44magLeo's Avatar
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    I don't know anything about Varget, never tried it.
    I have a Lyman D1000 and a Lee. They both deflect with a single grain of 4831 or 4350 powders.
    That's accurate enough for anything I'm shooting.
    I have a couple digital scales but don't really trust them for powder measuring.
    Leo

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    My old 304 and present 10-10 do a good job of reacting to less than a grain. My Denver Instruments mx-123 reacts to a kernel. That's about .02 of a grain.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

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    In my limited experience I've found that keeping the pivot and bearings clean and patience work for very small differences; trickling up by one or two kernels.
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master 44magLeo's Avatar
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    In your first post you say it takes 3 grains to get the beam to move.
    When you say grains do you mean each particle of powder?
    When speaking of powder a grain is a marking on the scale. A particle of powder is called a kernel.
    When your trickling powder and it takes 3 kernels of powder before you notice the beam moving I'd say your scale is fine.
    When you add the 3 kernels of powder how much does the beam on your scale move?
    Leo

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44magLeo View Post
    In your first post you say it takes 3 grains to get the beam to move.
    When you say grains do you mean each particle of powder?
    When speaking of powder a grain is a marking on the scale. A particle of powder is called a kernel.
    When your trickling powder and it takes 3 kernels of powder before you notice the beam moving I'd say your scale is fine.
    When you add the 3 kernels of powder how much does the beam on your scale move?
    Leo
    Sorry for the confusion. When I add one or two kernels of Varget the scale does not move from a dead stop. If I add a third kernel the scale will move. I am using a camera and large computer screen like 1066 shows. My scales are old and well used.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokomokid View Post
    Sorry for the confusion. When I add one or two kernels of Varget the scale does not move from a dead stop. If I add a third kernel the scale will move. I am using a camera and large computer screen like 1066 shows. My scales are old and well used.
    Clean them thoroughly. That may make a difference.

    Bill

  12. #12
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    I have an old Lyman M5 beam scale, a Redding 1 and Webster RW-1(both oil well) beam scales and they all will weigh 1 kernal of 4895, 4350, or 4831. I never used Varget on anything. It does take a few seconds to register but patience is the key. my experience anyway, james

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    +1 on the Ohaus/Lyman M5 very sensitive, much more sensitive than my RCBS 505 or cheap electronic scale

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Every beam scale I've used since '65 will detect a kernal of every tubular powder I dropped on it - including my own Lyman M5 and a Lee Safety Scale but I don't think mine are anything exceptional.

    The ONLY things that can possibly cause a balance scale to resist a change is either damaged or "dirty" bearings or knife edges, that's all that comes into play. Well, .... we also gotta make sure the beam's axel bar is properly centered and not touching the bearing retainers.

    A magnifying glass will help seeing buggered up knives. The sharp point of an alcohol soaked round toothpick is an excellent vee bearing cleaner-outer.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNsailorman View Post
    I have an old Lyman M5 beam scale, a Redding 1 and Webster RW-1(both oil well) beam scales and they all will weigh 1 kernal of 4895, 4350, or 4831. I never used Varget on anything. It does take a few seconds to register but patience is the key. my experience anyway, james
    Among my 30-40 beam scales I have a Webster RW-1 oil damped scale - This is an excellent well made scale with several desirable features. It has no bearing end plates, it only weights up to 350gns (from memory) very clearly etched beam with with deep beam serrations and has the ability to adjust sensitivity. If only there was an updated magnetically damped version.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    The design feature of end plates for the scale's oversized Vee bearing retainers is to be loose enough for the bearings to precisely self align to the knives in use without fear that the precision bearing blocks themselves might drop out and be lost or damaged.

    It's not hard to epoxy a few weights inside the body of a hollow scale but more weight increases the risk of significant damage if the scale is dropped on a hard surface.

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub
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    I had Scott Parker redo a Lyman M5 a while back and it is very sensitive and accurate it is my check on the other scales.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    dont think i can tell a 1/10 of a grain difference on a target .a kernel of powder no way.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master jmorris's Avatar
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    I don’t think I have used a powder scale that isn’t at least accurate to one grain.

    With a photo electric switch even an old 505 can detect a single kernel of Varget (around .02 grain), no need for a Scott Parker tune. Throw and over charge and power a trickler, have the switch shut off when the level is where you want it and you have accuracy two digits to the right of one grain after the decimal.

    Last edited by jmorris; 07-21-2020 at 09:56 AM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by robg View Post
    ... don't think i can tell a 1/10 of a grain difference on a target .a kernel of powder no way.
    Roger that. Accurately counting kernels is an easy concept to grasp but pursuit of such tiny variations can become a self defeating process. Thing is, such tiny charge differences should not/will not matter if the load is systematically developed.

    When developing new loads I've learned that there is what I call a "window" for powder type, charge weight and seating depth (call it a range in which small variations don't matter if you wish). Anything that falls within that window will shoot well. Seems each powder has a temperature/pressure range where it burns best and that tolerance exceeds trivial differences in weight. A tenth, or even +/- three tenths, is unlikely to make any difference IF the charge is in the middle of its window. On the other hand, if a chosen charge is only a tenth away from the window's edge then a tenth shift away from the ideal range WILL affect groups. I am convinced that single factor is why we get otherwise unexplainable "flyers".

    If you're getting flyers now try a few rounds shifting your charge a couple of tenths up and down, see if one doesn't correct the problem and the other make it worse. But can a single kernel matter? Naw, there just ain't no way!

    As a related aside, it's also a ditto for best OAL. There is a narrow window/range of a few thou for seating that's ideal too, and it's rarely to a specific point of +/- nothing. Truth is, any sweating to obtain a precise book OAL is a waste of time because book seating depth is no more a law than book powder charges.

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