The death penalty

[1hole]

You think we should execute people who have not been and probably can't be convicted due to a lack of evidence.

Tim

"You think we should ..."; goodness Timmy, you're reading between non-existent lines with that crack.

You're really smart, why not at least base your wildly degrading lies on what has actually been said rather than dreaming up foolishness and putting your words into other people's mouth; not only is that dishonest it's unsanitary. No one here (or anywhere else) has ever said or even suggested anything that justifies such a slimy claim as that and you know it.

[Texas by God]

The death penalty works. It prevents THAT convicted person from ever committing another crime. DUH. It should be done within a year of conviction with a single bullet to the head. Now you know where I stand.

[M-Tecs]

https://biblereasons.com/death-penalty/

https://www.gotquestions.org/death-penalty.html

[largom]

The death penalty works. It prevents THAT convicted person from ever committing another crime. DUH. It should be done within a year of conviction with a single bullet to the head. Now you know where I stand.

Agree, but hanging would be better.

[dtknowles]

https://biblereasons.com/death-penalty/

https://www.gotquestions.org/death-penalty.html

This one is a bit hard to accept:

"Romans 13:1-4 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience."

Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, to name just a few who stuck fear in people doing right.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

This one is a bit hard to accept:

"Romans 13:1-4 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience."

Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, to name just a few who stuck fear in people doing right.

Tim

The whole Romans passage quoted above only applies when the ruler is doing what is right. A ruler is no longer "God's authority" when he oppress the people. People no longer are required to obey laws that are contrary to God's commands (there are passages saying this). The original audience would have understood this, as do thinking Bible readers today.

[wv109323]

Christ was crucified ,capital punishment, under the Roman law that was in effect at that time. Apostle Paul beheaded under the same law. Both were innocent of the crimes they were accused.
God ordains earthly governments and capital punishment should be part of their penal systems. At all times through history there have been people that can not live civilly amoung other residents. Without the death penality these are a tremendous burden and a risk to society.
I think the death penality should be beyond a shadow of doubt. With that punishment should be sure and swift. With today's forensics very few would be punished innocently.
Without capital punishment you get what we have today. Criminals that can never be returned to society at a burden to taxpayers. Also our prisons become a school to gangs and a society of thugs that are uncontrolled.
What future does a convicted felon have but to return to a life of crime. No one will hire him, his family will shy away and he is left to persue a life of crime and usually educated in the prison he just left.

[tankgunner59]

I am a Christian and I would love to give you my answer. However, after reading many of your posts it is my informed opinion that the only thing you want is to find a way to start an argument and NO answer is good enough for you. So my suggestion is that you ask Jesus His opinion for yourself, then there will be no need to post these loaded questions here and waste our time! No need to reply, I'm not interested to read your response.

[ioon44]

I am a Christian and I would love to give you my answer. However, after reading many of your posts it is my informed opinion that the only thing you want is to find a way to start an argument and NO answer is good enough for you. So my suggestion is that you ask Jesus His opinion for yourself, then there will be no need to post these loaded questions here and waste our time! No need to reply, I'm not interested to read your response.

After reading all the post I would have to agree with this one.

[1hole]

Ah, Tanker, you make a good argument but he's a "liberal"! No common sense truths can refute his pursuit of human perfection in an imperfect world.

HE is the kind of social dreamers who have led to brutal tyrants seeking perfection of life as they see perfection but they don't even know which public potty they should use!

Loopy idealists have led American's educators to twist and distort facts until they have nothing solid left to stand on. Then, in turn, they pass their own bewilderment to successive generations of ignorant kids. Educators passing their baton of social stupidity has been going on so long that ignorance of foundational truths has caused many kids to lose their way. Kids grow up but fewer and fewer of them know there really is a difference between right and wrong so meaningful punishment of anyone for anything at all becomes scary to them.

Our rainbow banner idealists want us to follow the socialist dreams of their own radical "free thinker" leaders. But, as Seattle just proved, when day dreamers do get power, the people who made it possible soon see power hungry Stalins, Pol Pots, Hitlers, etc., fighting amongst themselves to become the brutal master of everyone.

Bottom line, evil is real and it's not going away. Evil can't safely be appeased for a moment of "peace in our time". We can't stop evil with any simple punishment but if civilization abandons the moral protections that have made civilization possible we will, as seen in CHAZ, see things get much worse ... and we'll see it quickly!

Nothing has ever had the power of Christianity to make things better for all men. Denying its truths always leads to social degeneration; always. Please God, save America from well intended day dreamers who don't know right from wrong themselves but love us so much they will kill us all if necessary to make everything "better" for the survivors in pursuit of their version of social perfection!

[Win94ae]

You wouldn't have Christianity, if it weren't for the death penalty... and if Jesus wasn't innocent; again you would not have Christianity.

Just saying.

[dtknowles]

The whole Romans passage quoted above only applies when the ruler is doing what is right. A ruler is no longer "God's authority" when he oppress the people. People no longer are required to obey laws that are contrary to God's commands (there are passages saying this). The original audience would have understood this, as do thinking Bible readers today.

This makes sense, God's rules first then Man's. If they conflict the go with God's rules.

I don't think there was ever a ruler or government over a large population that did not oppress some part of the people. Can you name a ruler who you consider carries "God's authority?"

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

This makes sense, God's rules first then Man's. If they conflict the go with God's rules.

I don't think there was ever a ruler or government over a large population that did not oppress some part of the people. Can you name a ruler who you consider carries "God's authority?"

Tim

While no ruler is 100% perfect, some do much better than others.

The United States, overall, is governed in such a way that we discourage crime and punish it when it happens.

To punish murder, rape/battery and theft is God's work--even if the instrument of that punishment is corrupt itself.

[mattw]

Personally I think the death penalty should be used more often... Having said that the unlimited appeals really should be controlled. But, the first conviction needs to be the correct one. Targeting a technicality is not a defense, and to appeal on one after another is not a good thing... it is abuse of the system.

There are evil people... there are evil people that should die! I knew, in passing, a guy that would drug and rape young girls and finally killed 3 of them because he became afraid someone would talk. His web grew to large. I knew he was off, way off... he would do things that normal people had enough morals not to do in general, like walk up behind a girl or woman in a checkout line and openly grope them and assume that they would not scream or alert someone. Over time he sliced and bled a few pets here and there and it just advanced to people. More or less, he hid the details of his misdeeds well and was proud of them at the same time.

I do not think you can fix people like that, short of a frontal lobotomy. Had state funny farms not all been shuttered, he likely would have ended up in one rather than spending the rest of his life in prison. Thus, maybe the case for real sanctioned institutions should be made... but that is to good for some.

[dtknowles]

While no ruler is 100% perfect, some do much better than others.

The United States, overall, is governed in such a way that we discourage crime and punish it when it happens.

To punish murder, rape/battery and theft is God's work--even if the instrument of that punishment is corrupt itself.

So do these corrupt instruments have "God's authority?"

Would not "God's authority" have a more even hand with punishments and not let money, politics, race or class have such a big impact in arrests, charges, plea deals and sentences?

I don't think our country acts with "God's authority." I think it acts according to whim of those at the top of the political structures.

We need to punish and even execute criminals but we need more justice.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

So do these corrupt instruments have "God's authority?"

Would not "God's authority" have a more even hand with punishments and not let money, politics, race or class have such a big impact in arrests, charges, plea deals and sentences?

I don't think our country acts with "God's authority." I think it acts according to whim of those at the top of the political structures.

We need to punish and even execute criminals but we need more justice.

Tim

"God's authority" is not meant to suggest everything that person does is correct, morally or otherwise.

Someone can do the work of God without knowing they are doing so or even caring about God's work at all. An extreme example is that Assyria and Babylon were used to punish Israel and Judah (respectively) and they were much more evil in comparison.

The Romans passage reminds us that God allows humans to govern themselves, hopefully within the guidelines he has given. Christians are called upon to obey the law, in so much as it aligns with what God has said. Keep in mind, when the authorities told the Apostles not to preach the Gospel, they quickly disobeyed the law.

[dtknowles]

"God's authority" is not meant to suggest everything that person does is correct, morally or otherwise.

Someone can do the work of God without knowing they are doing so or even caring about God's work at all. An extreme example is that Assyria and Babylon were used to punish Israel and Judah (respectively) and they were much more evil in comparison.

The Romans passage reminds us that God allows humans to govern themselves, hopefully within the guidelines he has given. Christians are called upon to obey the law, in so much as it aligns with what God has said. Keep in mind, when the authorities told the Apostles not to preach the Gospel, they quickly disobeyed the law.

So when something happens how do we know if it is God's work (like punishing Israel) or just Evil (like Pol Pot). Maybe I am wrong and what happened in Cambodia was the work of God.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

So when something happens how do we know if it is God's work (like punishing Israel) or just Evil (like Pol Pot). Maybe I am wrong and what happened in Cambodia was the work of God.

Tim

In the case of Israel and punishment, she was sent prophets before and after the events. This was just an example I used from the Bible showing someone could be an instrument of God's work and not know. If a human authority is correcting/punishing wrong-doing, they are doing God's work. Whether this is a parent raising a child or the court system in America punishing a murderer.

[iomskp]

Those that pray on the old the young and the vulnerable, should be put down, dropped in a hole and a tree planted on top so at least the wild life can benefit from them.

[dtknowles]

In the case of Israel and punishment, she was sent prophets before and after the events. This was just an example I used from the Bible showing someone could be an instrument of God's work and not know. If a human authority is correcting/punishing wrong-doing, they are doing God's work. Whether this is a parent raising a child or the court system in America punishing a murderer.

Ickisrulz, thanks for your thoughtful responses. You seem to understand the point of threads like this. When doing good you are doing God's work and when you are doing evil you are not doing God's work.

Then it is possible for a human authority to be doing God's work without intending to and to be doing evil at the same time.

When trying to determine whether to support such a human authority, what balance of good vs. evil is good enough. Certainly 50/50 is not good enough or maybe it is if the alternative is almost 100% evil.

Regarding capital punishment, is 1 out of a hundred wrongful executions good enough or should the threshold be higher like 1 out of a thousand. On the flip side if we have to let a 100 guilty criminals go free to avoid jailing one innocent person, we are not serving justice either.

I don't think our criminal justice system is totally broken but it certainly is in need of some reforms. I think Christians and others should support both the system and the needed reforms.

Tim