Many Christians support the death penalty but not all.
Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?
If on a jury a Christian votes guilty and the accused is executed but is actually innocent did that Christian commit murder.
Is beyond a reasonable doubt an appropriate measure for a death penalty case? Shouldn't it be beyond the shadow of a doubt?
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
The ASPD prison population is truly evil and cannot be rehabilitated.
Read:
Inside the Criminal Mind by Stanton Samenow
Also:
Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us, Robert Hare
The Sociopath Next Door, by Martha Stout
There is a predictable desire on the part of most Christians to establish rapport and mutuality with others, even when we know what's in their "jacket." This desire is a huge Achilles heel for untrained non-criminals, which causes untold amounts of hurt whenever it is allowed to define how an understanding of reality is established between say, a psychotherapist or nurse with a sociopath or psychopath. The bad guys are more adept at playing this game than the good guys. Female therapists and COs were generally the most reluctant to accept that when inmates were being nice to them that they were being worked. Whenever an arrestee or sentenced offender entered the system expressing claims of mental illness and requesting medication (usually for bipolar disorder, which lends itself readily to a misinterpretation by the average therapist outside of a coke run as manic behavior, with attendant anger and explosiveness) a clinical psychiatrist would be called to interview them and determine if they truly were mentally ill. During the interview, if caught lying, the best ones wouldn't miss a beat and would switch to a new lie in mid-sentence.
A serial murderer whose interview I witnessed behind a 2-way mirror came from a large family, with a number of siblings being doctors and attorneys. When their behavior was contrasted to his, he felt dissed and pointed out that he was good at what he did, too.
One young inmate interviewed was pleased at himself for having cut a woman's head off, after raping and stabbing her to death. His reason? Because he'd never done it before. He added that he felt "like God" when he was doing a crime, and could do anything he wanted to, to anyone he wanted to do it too.
A case which still gives me nightmares involved a guy who owned a security company and installed systems in people's homes who was also a burglar. On his last burglary, he had finished picking up all the valuables when he discovered the male homeowner sleeping on his sofa. He "skinned him". I don't recall whether he was alive or dead at the time. When asked why he did it, he responded "I had the time."
The current emphasis in evaluating inmates is based upon "criminal thinking errors," based on cognitive behavioral principals, which basically postulates that if the system can help an inmate identify, then challenge and replace the thoughts and behaviors which lead them to eventually act on their criminal fantasies, recidivism would be reduced, as well as the level of seriousness of the recidivistic offenses.
https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.neias.org/...ng_antisoc.pdf
While I'm hopeful that the thinking errors program has helped, but I have real doubts about the efficacy of any educational type program for the ASPD inmate population. ASPDs do not think like us, and we should stop pretending that they do because the eventual consequences of our own stupidity in doing so is simply too great to ignore.
My two-bits are that a significant component in the make-up of the average ASPD is genetic, but I admit there are likely flaws in adopting that view, unless those genetics occur within a bell shaped curve distribution pattern in which "a tendency toward sociopathy" anchors the left part of the curve, there is no way to explain what I would label "learned or acquired sociopathy" or perhaps "latent sociopathy".
I eventually came to believe it is likely ASPDs represent a flawed subspecies of humanity. There is a feral nature within them that is scary to any charged with catching them, incarcerating and rehabilitating them. That feral component of their personality is something they typically try to hide (except for those already in max-max and max-close - they've embraced it, they live it, they feed it and work hard to grow it, which is a hoot to them), and it always surprises me the number of veteran law enforcement folks who don't spot it, even when it was in the early stages of having "come out to play".
I've always believed in the concept of evil, but until an adult had never looked a proud disciple of Satan in the face... I will tell you straight up, that evil walks among us and the truly evil ones must die because they are beyond redemption.
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Last edited by Outpost75; 07-02-2020 at 03:16 PM.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Jesus asked John to accompany him when he went to Gethsemane. Peter had a sword with him as he chopped of the ear of one of those who came to arrest Jesus. He left his house normally and the sword was not on his person to cut fruit with.
Should we lynch people? I believe the answer is no. Can we love a person while realizing that every second he is on this planet he is a mortal risk to others? Yes we can even though it means making a decision to remove him from the living. If war, defending one's life and those we love is not murder than making a collective decision or electing a Judge to make that decision to remove someone from the living isn't either, IMO.
Would I volunteer to be on the firing squad? No. Would I act properly if so assigned? Yes.
As Outpost said, Evil exists, I have seen some and they are past feeling and acting on the love we might have for them.
Last edited by MT Gianni; 07-03-2020 at 01:17 PM.
[The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze
For those interested in the clinical definition of Anti-Social Personality Disorder (ASPD) in the DSM-5 here is the link:
https://www.theravive.com/therapedia...-301.7-(f60.2)
If you take the time to read the entire section, you have a crystal clear definition of human evil.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
I will kill a rabid dog or skunk because it has the potential for bitting not only other animals but people as well. It stops the threat of further harm.
The death penalty dose the same thing, it stops the threat of further harm to others including other prisoners.
Political correctness is a national suicide pact.
I am a sovereign individual, accountable
only to God and my own conscience.
I have personally looked into the eyes of pure evil.
When I was a younger man I worked at a jail. And we had a inmate thier named X.
He was awaiting sentencing on a triple murder charge. In our state then off to another state for more of the same.
When I met him for the first time I could see he lost his soul. Their was nothing there but hate and spite and himself.
No regard for anything other then himself.
It is the only time in my life where I could have killed a man in cold blood and went to bed knowing the world would have been a safer place without him in it.
I say this to you all now.
PRISON DOSE NOT WORK.
It dose not rehabilitate. IT DOSE NOT change someone life for the better.
Jails work as they are a temporary punishment.
"I'll I know is he will never have the chance to kill another little girl again." . Private Rico upon witnessing the execution of a murderer.
Robert hemline starship troopers
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Take religion out of the question. Religious beliefs have no place in our criminal justice system.
If you believe the government has the authority to put a convicted person in prison for the rest of his/her life (effectively taking that person's life) then killing the person is no worse (and I could make an argument that it is actually less cruel).
And all of the above members that have posted about the different forms of evil and the ineffectiveness of incarceration when dealing with evil people - ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
There are evil people that we will NEVER fix. There is nothing to be gained by keeping them alive and only risk and cost. We, as a society, are far better off killing them and moving on.
Frankly, I believe the death penalty is underutilized. There are sociopaths and psychopaths that have not been convicted of murder but we should still kill them.
SO, we have specific crimes that may be punished by death. A person charged with a crime, given a trial with due process and convicted; is subject to the penalties authorized by the law. If the law provides the death penalty as one of the permissible punishments for that crime, so be it.
Last edited by Petrol & Powder; 07-02-2020 at 08:01 PM.
I’ll tell this story here for the first time, I hope doing so helps me, if it helps you so much the better.
You know the joke about the old man and the flood?
An old man was standing on his front porch and the flood waters were coming up onto the porch.
His neighbor yelled to him “hang on, I’ll be over in a minute to drive you out with my family.” The man replied “no need I trust the Lord to save me.”
As the water rises he retreats to the second floor and while standing by a window a man in a boat yells to him “get in my boat and I’ll take you to safety.” The man replied “no need, I trust the Lord to save me.”
As the water rises higher he climbs onto the peak of his roof where a helicopter sees him and lowers a man to save him, but again the man sends them away saying “no need I trust the Lord to save me.”
The water continues to rise and the man drowns.
When he meets the Lord he asks what he did wrong that the Lord did not save him and the Lord replied that he’d sent his neighbor, a boat, and a helicopter.
So my story.
In college a dear friend of mine was raped by 2 young men at a fraternity party. She was visiting a mutual friend at another school when it happened. Without going into details, please just accept this as fact. She asked me to visit her the next weekend and told me what had happened. It was the late 1980’s and this sort of thing was almost impossible to prosecute, there was nothing that could be done. The event completely changed the course of her life, and not for the better, but I’m getting ahead of myself. I spoke to the mutual friend that she’d gone to visit and was able to learn the identity of one of the men. I went to visit the next week fully prepared to murder him. Nobody knew me on campus, nobody knew that I’d be there, I’d be a stranger at a big party, no muss no fuss. It didn’t happen like that, my friend just happened to see me and intervened, she begging me to walk away. I got into a fight with the guy, but that was all. I have no doubt that he raped other women, that’s sorta a thing with rapists, they keep raping.
Now one day I’m going to die, and when I approach the Lord I worry that there will be a group of young women asking the Lord why he did not save them, and I’m afraid that he may just say “I sent Jim.”
It sounds kinda dumb, it has no scriptural basis, and yet I can’t help think about the unknown women whose lives were subsequently destroyed because I did not act.
This case was easy, there was no question about the act or the perpetrator. I have never been on a jury in a capital case, but if that ever happens I will not be afraid of sentencing someone to die.
Sorry for the somewhat rambling post, this has been gnawing at me for the past few months since I learned that another dear friend was recently raped and that the rapist in her case was not charged.
You did not answer the question but seem to be suggesting that you support the death penalty.Originally Posted by Outpost75
The question was "Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?"
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
You are all dodging the question.
"Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?"
Can anyone find support for the death penalty in the New Testament?
I support the death penalty but I am not a Christian. The Catholic Church when I belong opposed and still does oppose the death penalty. Clearly confessed killers and rapists can be executed with a clear conscience. Accused who proclaim their innocence should not be executed unless the evidence is beyond question.
Those of you who love Jesus as your Lord and Savior but who support the death penalty, how do you reconcile the contradiction?
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
I cannot and that is why I no longer support the death penalty. I dont support abortion either.
Tim, seems you've been quite for too long but once again you pose a pot stirring question based on a false premise; even you should understand that a legal execution is not murder and a state executioner is not a murder and trail juries are not principles in a murder.
God set a standard for violations of law; "an eye for an eye", etc. Contrary to faked howls of "liberal" outrage, that Biblical concept conveys the principle of a fair examination and, if convicted, setting a just penalty not exceeding what's right for the crime. The just penalty for a capital crime is death.
The Commandment "thou shall not kill" is an incorrect translation of the text, it simply means we are not to commit murder and most translations since the KJV do get it correct. A legal trial and conviction of a capital crime rightly ends with execution but, as specified above, a legal execution is by no means a murder.
Nor is killing in defense of self or others murder, nor is impersonal killing in times of war murder.
But you're a smart guy, I suspect you already knew all of that, didn't you?
I'm no biblical scholar,but in the age of DNA and fancy scientific test guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is a shoe in. As a Christian should I ever be called as a juror for a capital case and the evidence shows guilt beyond a reasonable doubt I have no problem voting for the death penalty.
That's not going to happen here in Ma as we tend to send our murderers to life in prison. Plus being 70 now I don't have to do jury duty any more.
Again you don't read the question.
Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?"
Is the legal execution of an innocent person murder?
It happens but mostly only to Black people, sort of legal lynching.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
Christians do not execute people.
Executions are carried out by the duly constituted authority, which is the state. Unless its a federal crime and then the federal government takes care of that business.
Your question is answered.
Political correctness is a national suicide pact.
I am a sovereign individual, accountable
only to God and my own conscience.
I have testified in capital murder trials. I have been a jury foreman on murder cases. I have served my country in combat. Those people who are truly evil should not be allowed to live. I have known some that I would be fully willing to kill myself. I DO SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY.
End of story. I feel no regret.
If you cannot comprehend, then I understand that you have never had to deal with true evil up close and personal. I sincerely pray that our Lord forever protects you and your family forever from the evil ones and that you never need to make that choice. Amen.
Last edited by Outpost75; 07-02-2020 at 09:54 PM.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Tim
Paul exlained that God established human government to punish evildoers. Execution for convicted criminals is not murder.
Respectfully,
Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
"I don't have hobbies - I'm developing a robust post-apocalyptic skill set"
I may be discharged and retired but I'm sure I did not renounce the oath that I solemnly swore!
You need to reread the account of Gethsemane, it was Peter not John who had the sword and he was not a "her".
I answered your question in its broad application to leave you less wiggle room and decrease your well known wrangling.
First, I've never known a Christian who carried out a death sentence and don't expect to, that's the legal responsibility of the community at large.Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death.
What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?"
I think Jesus would say, "Read the Bible, it's my words on life, and follow its guidance" and I've already covered that.
That's just too silly a question to bother with responding.Is the legal execution of an innocent person murder?
Christians, per se, do not run and therefore are not responsible for the mindless deeds or misdeeds of a flawed civil legal system long controlled by secular humanists so we don't have to answer for the courts. But, the truth is our legal system is far more likely to release legally and properly convicted black criminals than any other race.It happens but mostly only to Black people, sort of legal lynching.
For you to willy-nilly set up a contorted hypothetical that equates a court ordered execution as a "lynching" as if we are responsible for the state's errors is both dishonest and quite a logic overreach.
You're a "compassionate believer" (of something?); what would you ask us to do? I mean would you suggest Christians arm themselves and rise up to storm the gates of prisons in the name of our God and stop all executions or are you just casually bloviating about nothing meaningful again?
Last edited by 1hole; 07-03-2020 at 10:39 AM.
The death penalty system is broken. Reports show it costs more (appeals, etc) than if you just put them in prison for life. Until that is resolved, my vote is for life in prison. I don’t want my tax dollars spent on appeals. Add to this that there have been too many falsely imprisoned folks, death penalty doesn’t make sense.
If you can fix the above, I have no moral issue with the death penalty.
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