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Thread: 45-70 Auto AR-10 platform

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    45-70 Auto AR-10 platform

    So I was watching some video's on the inter-web and came across this recently posted video of a Phoenix Weaponry 45-70 Auto

    https://youtu.be/-L_gzFu9TNg

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I finally found an AR that I like. uh-oh. I wonder if I can build one of my own...

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    No thanks, give me a pump action 45-70 built on a smaller scale m17 Remington ( Browning) action, straight stocked, receiver sight, 5 shots. I can dream, can’t I?

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    The .458 socon is essentially a 45-70 auto. It is on the ar-15 platform.

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    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    No thanks, give me a pump action 45-70 built on a smaller scale m17 Remington ( Browning) action, straight stocked, receiver sight, 5 shots. I can dream, can’t I?
    Sure, why not. Only other .45-70 I ever owned was a 98 Mauser action with a very light weight Jock McGowan barrel. Couldn't get all 5 shots on a paper plate at 50 yards. Don't know why, and didn't keep it. Regret that now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wv109323 View Post
    The .458 socon is essentially a 45-70 auto. It is on the ar-15 platform.
    Don't know if they're experts, but the Wiki article says "similar to a light .45-70, but with a much smaller case. The .45-70 Auto is for the AR-10 platform, and supposedly fires heavier rounds faster. I'd like to try both, but with the Auto rifle's price tag I think I'm probably out of luck unless I can build my own. Looks like Starline sells the brass. $2.50 a pop! Maybe the SOCOM round will fit my budget better.

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    I know someone was doing the 450 marlin in ar's at one time. Id stick to the proven big bores in the ars. 450 bushmaster, 458 socom and my favorite the 50 beo.

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    I have a 458 socom and prefer my Marlin 45/70. Not a big boy caliber but I do have a .410 Ar15 that is a lot of fun.

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    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    Little secret .
    The 45-70 auto is a 284 Win necked back up to almost basic .
    Get a 45 cal AR10 barrel run the 45-70 reamer in done .

    45 Raptor is done also on a .451/2 groove , not a big deal for us , and has plenty of pressure room to make up for the 1.8" case . Most of the listed data for the rimmed 460 S&W is held to 46kpsi and is used directly into the trimmed 308 cases. If you can secure the bolt and extension this guy should be good to go in an AR 15 at 2.26 OAL at "only" 40 kpsi your dancing with full 86 Win and 1895 Marlin level MV . As a word of caution a 350 @ 1900 fps in a 95 Mauser with a 16" barrel that tips in about 6# is about 150 fps past where the fun stops . 1800-2000 with a 250-265 isn't bad at all and your not under powered .
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    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Harter66 has it right.

    Use .284 Win brass and .45-70 dies. Use 1 in 14" twist .458 barrel and 500-grain .458 Win. FMJ bullets subsonic with can using 4227 or 4198 powder to get 1050 +/- 30 fps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Harter66 has it right.

    Use .284 Win brass and .45-70 dies. Use 1 in 14" twist .458 barrel and 500-grain .458 Win. FMJ bullets subsonic with can using 4227 or 4198 powder to get 1050 +/- 30 fps.
    I won't be getting a can until NFA34 is repealed, or I win the lottery. First is rather more likely than the last.
    Also don't have any sort of AR, but if I were to get one, I'd be inclined to the AR10 anyway. And I'd have to nickle and dime it, one piece at a time, most likely.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    The 45-70 govt is going to have a lot of feeding issues in an AR platform. There’s a reason why every other caliber is offered besides it in an AR. Rimless cartridges aren’t made for ARs. Stuck with the bushmaster or .458 solcom. Shooters have alot have feeding and cycling issues with these rimmed cartridges that were designed to function in ARs and in an AR platform ALL cartridges no matter what caliber have to be downloaded because ARs can’t take the pressure. Marketing hype and smoke and mirrors as usual. Ill pass and stick with my Ruger 450BM scout. I’ll have to take it out of the box one of these days and shoot it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    The 45-70 govt is going to have a lot of feeding issues in an AR platform. There’s a reason why every other caliber is offered besides it in an AR. Rimless cartridges aren’t made for ARs. Stuck with the bushmaster or .458 solcom. Shooters have alot have feeding and cycling issues with these rimmed cartridges that were designed to function in ARs and in an AR platform ALL cartridges no matter what caliber have to be downloaded because ARs can’t take the pressure. Marketing hype and smoke and mirrors as usual. Ill pass and stick with my Ruger 450BM scout. I’ll have to take it out of the box one of these days and shoot it.
    Evidently you didn't watch video; it's not rimmed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hpdrifter View Post
    Evidently you didn't watch video; it's not rimmed.
    The AR10 is rated for 62Kpsi, as is the .308Win/7.62Nato round. So is the 5.56mm Nato round. So his arguments about pressure are maybe not spot-on, either. Not finding any data on the .45-70 Auto round, but .45 Raptor is a 62Kpsi round, based on the 308 cartridge. Should be relatively easy on an AR10. Seems to me that a 20 round magazine would still be a 20 round magazine, too. And .45 Raptor brass is $0.55/round in lots of 1000, where .45-70 Auto brass was $2.50/round. Sounds much more suitable for a cheap bastrich like me. One tiny problem. Not much load data for the .45 Raptor, and not for bullets the .45-70 was designed for. Highest weight bullet I saw data for is 395grains, versus the designed 405. Though I don't know of anything in North America that would need anything larger.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hpdrifter View Post
    Evidently you didn't watch video; it's not rimmed.
    I fast forwarded the video to try and see the round to see if the case was modified ...making it not a true 45-70 govt round imo...but just calling it one for marketing
    Hype. So it a modified case with a .457 bullet at 4570 velocities and calling it a 4570 govt. It's a round used for hunting and not to lug around in a 15 pound plus rifle for tactical use. Definitely not a long range defense caliber and I sure would drag that heavy thing out on a big game hunt. All it's for imo is to bring out for show and tell at the range to get attention...and I'm way over that.
    I'm sure there will be a very, very small market for them just like the 300 WSMs that have died out already. Just another AR in another chambering so I got bored and lost interest pretty quick. I have a couple of 243 ARs and a POF P415 that rarely get used. All bought for coyote hunting. I, along with everyone else here, will probably never need an AR to defend myself in my lifetime. I'd rather grab something else to shoot in my safe before I grab one of my ARs. Dont mean defend anyone but ARs just dont get me excited especially in a govt chambering. You only need one shot with that round imo when hunting anyways. I'd rather have a quiggly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    I fast forwarded the video to try and see the round to see if the case was modified ...making it not a true 45-70 govt round imo...but just calling it one for marketing
    Hype. So it a modified case with a .457 bullet at 4570 velocities and calling it a 4570 govt. It's a round used for hunting and not to lug around in a 15 pound plus rifle for tactical use. Definitely not a long range defense caliber and I sure would drag that heavy thing out on a big game hunt. All it's for imo is to bring out for show and tell at the range to get attention...and I'm way over that.
    I'm sure there will be a very, very small market for them just like the 300 WSMs that have died out already. Just another AR in another chambering so I got bored and lost interest pretty quick. I have a couple of 243 ARs and a POF P415 that rarely get used. All bought for coyote hunting. I, along with everyone else here, will probably never need an AR to defend myself in my lifetime. I'd rather grab something else to shoot in my safe before I grab one of my ARs. Dont mean defend anyone but ARs just dont get me excited especially in a govt chambering. You only need one shot with that round imo when hunting anyways. I'd rather have a quiggly.
    The original case is a modified .45-70 gov't with the rim turned off, and a groove cut to make it rimless. I'm not particularly sensitive to recoil, and I like large heavy guns, large fast bullets. Though I hear you on the AR platform. My intro to them was qualification fire in USAF Basic Training in 1973 with a flakey M16. I have fired an AR15 that I liked, and the AR180 that I had in the late 70's/early 80's. Might like them better if they were all steel. I'm fond of old MilSurp bolt guns. I do want something semi-auto in case the world goes to crap, and if I have to shoot something in those circumstances I want it one shot and done. Not betting on a glorified .22 for that.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    If the world goes to crap I don't think there will warehouses full of 4570 rimless ammo or casings available. A good old boring 308 AR10 and you'll never be short on ammo. If I own an AR platform I want it in some type of chambering i can walk into any store and purchase ammo for it if needed. I can guarantee you if you ever see 4570 rimless ammo on any shelf ....which I'm sure won't happen....it will be shorter lived than the WSSMs. Im not recoil sensitive myself. I put 30 full house rounds through my 375 RUM the other day. That 4570 ar I'm sure is a pussycat compared to it. I have barrel stacked 800 plus pound farm tires at head level for years and still dont want to haul a gun that weighs 15 pounds or more along with gear through the mountains or a sandy wash. I'm sure the round will feed in bolt guns so maybe the IA and MI deer hunters will talk Ruger to do special runs in the American bolt guns that can't even handle the wimpier 450BM round long term
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 07-05-2020 at 01:43 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    If the world goes to crap I don't think there will warehouses full of 4570 rimless ammo or casings available. A good old boring 308 AR10 and you'll never be short on ammo. I'm not recoil sensitive myself. I put 30 full house rounds through my 375 RUM the other day. That 4570 ar I'm sure is a pussycat compared to it. I have barrel stacked 800 plus pound farm tires at head level for years and still dont want to haul a gun that weighs 15 pounds or more along with gear through the mountains or a sandy wash.
    I don't have the $4800 to buy that particular rifle anyway, and once circumstances become such that I need it, I probably won't be around much longer anyway. I'm getting old, and been broken down for some time already. Rode hard and put away wet, so to speak. It's not quite idle dreaming, but not all that far from it, either. Most everything I shoot at these days is cellulose or aluminum. Though I wasn't depending on warehouses, except maybe my own. I also collect metal, and machines & tools to work it, and the skills to work it.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master Tokarev's Avatar
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    People build 45-70 bolt rifles on Mosin-Nagant platform for dirt cheap.

  20. #20
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    get yourself a win or marlin 4570 lever gun if you want a 4570. If you want an ar get one chambered in something that's commonly chambered in an ar. Theres already the 458 socom, 450 bushmaster and 50 beo that do everything a 4570 would do in an ar anyway. Not a game animal in north America that cant be taken buy any of those 3. Wife shot a 1500lb Asian water buffalo with my beo.

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