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Thread: 429215 Targets Only?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    429215 Targets Only?

    I've read many posts in ref. to this bullet & mould & seems it is used for targets mostly. I really get some zip with this bullet pushed with a very healthy load of W-296, and a shallow seat delivered out of my 94AE 44 Trapper & Handi Rifle. Mine lubed & checked weigh in @ about 227 gr. I haven't hunted with these rifles much but I'm giving it some consideration @ will probably mount a scope on the trapper & give it a try. What's your experience & thoughts? Jim

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
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    The light weight bullets are very effective on deer-sized game. If cast soft they can destroy a lot of otherwise edible meat, but they kill like lightning. Make your bullet tough and moderately hard, and you'll do well with it. I like mine, as they are easy to shoot well.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    I've shot many deer with that bullet. It's the most accurate 44 bullet in my 44spl/44mags!

    BIGBORESHOOTER

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks for responses, I should have also included approx. velocity, range, & complete pass thru. or not. Alloy info is good also. Thanks.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    After the lack of responses, I see that very few people hunt with this bullet. I think I am a man on a mission this hunting season with this bullet & the old 44 mag rifle. Sure would like to see more product knowledge, noth'in better than the Ole' been there done that. Pigs, Bear, Deer, Moose, Yotes, Rabbits, Tree Rats, Mice, Spiders & Snakes, etc. Jim

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Tatume-BibboreShooter ; I appreciate your responses, my rifles shoot pretty flat with that boolit all things considered.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master curioushooter's Avatar
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    I am assuming you are talking about deer.

    I have a friend who has claimed to have taken dozens of deer (smallish Indiana whitetails) with the 429215 driven to around 1100 FPS muzzle velocity. He reported 100% pass through...never recovered one from the deer. As is typical for solid large bore cast bullets it will drill a forty three caliber hole through the animal. He reported they usually went down within 25-30 yards of where they were shot without much drama.

    He did this in a 44 magnum loaded with fast powders like Universal. He greatly prefers the 429215 because it is a lighter bullet (so less recoil) and the gas check which in his guns he said it keeps them cleaner.

    I really like the 429215, too; but I use it in 44 special+P. I have found any load for the 429421 can be applied to the 429215 with usually ~100 FPS greater velocity in my 6.5" 624.

    The only thing that I would hesitate on with recommending the 215 is that 1) I've never personally taken deer with it and 2) at long ranges it will suffer more than standard weight or heavy weights in that caliber. So if you are adventurous and would take a long shot, then I might think a standard weight bullet may be a little better.

    429215: BC .188 with MV of 1100 FPS at 100 yards 6.7 inches drop at 975 FPS with an energy of 464, momentum of 30, and Taylor KO of 13.

    429421/HG503/429244: BC .2 with MV of 1075 FPS at 100 yards 7 inches drop and 960 FPS. For an energy of 527, momentum of 35 and Taylor KO of 15

    Even comparing to a full powered 44 mag load of 429421/HG503/429244: BC .2 with MV of 1400 FPS 4 inches drop at 100 yards and 1160 FPS for an energy of 770 momentum of 42 and Taylor KO of 18.

    The truth is these are very comparable. So I don't know how one could say the 429215 is for targets only while the heavier SWCs are "huntin' bullets."

    Every animal I've examined shot with handgun velocity range (900-1400 FPS) solid cast bullets is the same story...one I've corroborated on ballistic gel. Flat nosed solid cast bullets do not expand. They drill a caliber or slightly larger sized hole through the animal or they stop in the animal. As long as there is enough momentum at impact they push through, so a 429215 and a giant 350 grain WFN will do basically the same damage on a thin skinned narrow-bodied whitetail. If it turns out that a momentum at impact of 30 is all you need to push through a momentum of 42 isn't going to do significantly more damage.

    There is, in my opinion, way, way too much emphasis on penetration on deer. Once pass through is achieved (this is important) that's about as good as it gets. Everyone seems to think that deer are steers or something. They aren't. I've slaughtered/butchered both animals. There is no comparison...like a dump truck to a corolla. Confident shot placement in an ideal area is more important, and personally, I find this easier to do with more moderate loads. If you've got a 215 and like it so far and find it accurate and it is over 1100 FPS MV I would say go for it because real world evidence supports the fact that under 50 yards or so that load passes through 100% of the time.
    Last edited by curioushooter; 07-07-2020 at 01:17 PM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    Yeah I agree. If your impact velocity doesn't make your boolit expand, go light for caliber. If your boolit nose is full of air you want as heavy as possible, and it still won't penetrate as much as the light solid.

    For example, my 3% Sb Lee 452-200-RF .32" meplat at 1200 fps penetrates 9 milk jugs. Lee 452-300-RF with 1-1-98 alloy at 1500 fps mushrooms and only penetrates 4 jugs because it is a big ol' parachute at .80 cal.

    My 158-RF bullets penetration goes from 7 milk jugs down to 3 if it mushrooms. Same with the Ranch Dog 135. 3 jugs is roughly 12" gel and not enough for deer IMO.

    A deer I shot with a 3 jug load made it at least 200 yards double lunged. The first lung had a fist size hole in it and the second lung was a pin hole with a .60 cal bruise around the pin hole. The bullet did not even make it to the far side rib cage. That one good lung let that tough old doe go pretty far. This was a 357 rifle ,140 @ 1900 fps impact.

    I have shot many deer with loads that penetrate 5-12 jugs and sometimes I catch a 5 jug bullet.

    I recovered two bullets this year from deer, both 5 jug loads and both nearly texas heart shots found near the front shoulder blades in the backstraps. 4-5 jugs penetration will let you shoot big Ohio deer on any angle except a Texas heart shot or rear hambone to vitals shot. 6-7 jugs will let you take Texas heart shots. Most people see deer butthole and think "that one got away" and don't take those shots anyways.

    This year I recovered a 2.5-2.5-95 158 at 1900 fps impact that mushroomed to about .58 cal from the 357 rifle. On this drive the doe almost ran me over, then was jumping and dodging me at 5 yards and the first shot hit her, she plowed into a tree at full speed and didn't move. I was lining up on the button buck who ran 10 yards to my other side when I heard some leaves scuffling. The doe was running on her front elbows away from me. The shot blew through both upper leg bones and grazed the chest, and she knocked herself out when she hit the tree. She wasn't going fast and I felt terrible, so I tried to shoot her in the back of the neck. The shot landed in her ham, through her pelvis and ended up where the neck meat meets the backstraps after nicking a few vertebrae. That 5 jug load went through about 26" of big ol' nanny doe, 'bout 140 lb dressed.

    The other 5 jug load recovered from a deer this year was a 260 cup point from the 45 super that mushrooms to only about 60 cal. I say "only" because the HP mushrooms to 78-80 cal and barely penetrates 3 jugs. This was a spooked 2 year old doe. I stalked to within about 40 yards where I saw a few deer browsing in an overgrown pasture about 4 feet high. I was carrying 2 buckets of corn and my 1911. When I set the buckets down one handle bounced on the side of the bucket and I instantly saw ears perk up. I waited and waited and slowly stood up and the two deer took a couple big hops towards the woods and stopped to see what spooked them from 65 yards. I picked the doe the most broadside of the two and sent it through her rear ham, through the pelvic girdle without touching bone or hitting the colon and it landed in the backstrap over the front opposite shoulder, clipping a few vertebrae. I had been winning bullseye matches and shooting chickens and pigs with this gun all summer, and got a few 5 round 1" offhand groups with this gun at 25 yards in side matches. The bullet hit exactly where I wanted and testing my loads for penetration and expansion gave me the confidençe to take a harder quartering shot than I ever have before.
    Last edited by mnewcomb59; 07-13-2020 at 08:30 PM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Great Info!! And Thanks for the full story of your experiences! But there has got to be the Rifle & Deer or Bear Stories with this boolit, I know you are out there & can't wait to tell what you know. So join in with the rest of the full description stories, & tell Your Experiences with this boolit other than paper, rocks, & cans. Thanks Again!

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    Shoot some jugs from your rifle at 25 yards and see if it is mushrooming and killing your penetration.

    Light for caliber bullets that mushroom a lot aren't too good for deer. If you have an intact bullet with no expansion or a moderate mushroom with at least 4 jugs of penetration, I would say go for it. If you only get 2 or 3 jugs from the rifle, you wanna change your alloy. If you get 8 or 9 jugs, that's okay too but you don't wanna shoot a deer with an under-penetrating bullet.

  11. #11
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    The 44-40 with 200 gr lead bullets at 1200 - 1400 fps was and has been killing critters, two and four legged, for 150+ years. That would include a lot of deer.......
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have no doubt it will deliver the venison, have the same mold just have not used it on game yet.
    So many molds so little time.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I’ve not plunked a great number of deer with the 429215 but I’ve killed them with it easy enough . Loaded in a 444 lever action and a Ruger #3 that started life as a 44 MAG and had the chamber run out to 444 before I acquired it . Not only have I used the 429215 but I also have a Lyman single cavity 429215 HP as well and have killed deer with it again from a 444 . I have them in both variations loaded for my scoped blued Redhawk and scoped Contender but as of yet haven’t killed a deer with a 44 Mag handgun . Of course I’ve not fired at any either !
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    The 44-40 with 200 gr lead bullets at 1200 - 1400 fps was and has been killing critters, two and four legged, for 150+ years. That would include a lot of deer.......
    I’ve got a couple nice old Ideal single cavity 429434 molds . Originally designed for the 44-40 that I’ve used in imagine that a 444 and shock of all time they plunked any deer I decided to shoot them at . Granted none of the shots were over seventy or so yards but dead is dead is dead .
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I have limited (3) experience with deer and a 44 magnum SBH. I shot the first with a jacketed 240 gr bullet and the little hole in-little hole out didn't impress me because the doe ran 1/4 mile. After changing to a lightweight HP jacketed bullet, and got little hole in-bigger hole out, I was pleased with the much shorter tracking distance. You'll get adequate penetration on deer (thin skin, light bones) with the lighter bullet.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    The 44-40 with 200 gr lead bullets at 1200 - 1400 fps was and has been killing critters, two and four legged, for 150+ years. That would include a lot of deer.......
    He is probably shooting 800-1000 fps faster than the 44-40 with a "very healthy load of H-110". Bullet expansion and penetration changes a Lot between 1200 and 2200 fps. As your impact velocity goes up you need a harder bullet or a heavier soft bullet to maintain the same penetration. My Lee 200-RF penetrates 9 jugs at 44-40 velocity with a 9 BHN bullet in my 1894. Take that same bullet same BHN only 200 fps faster (1450 fps) and now you get 3 jugs penetration.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    One of my favorite out of the .44 is the Lyman 429215. Cast of range scrap at ~8 BHN to quenched WW’s, sized, lubed and checked, it works well from busting cow pies and hedge apples to deer, it’s a good boolit for general use out to 100 yards or better. I found it easy and mild to shoot out of a revolver with midrange loads producing some 1200fps out of a pistol with quicker powders. It’s not too light for great performance with 2400/4227/W296/H110 loads, but unless these were used in a carbine, the blast and flash was unpleasant and there didn’t seem much velocity advantage out of a short barrel for using almost twice as much powder over Unique/Universal/800X/Blue Dot and the like. I used it to hunt deer for some years, both in pistol and carbine with no complaints. I was never able to recover one from a deer. All of them passed through, generally at 80 yards or less, broadside or quartering to the boiler room and they didn’t go far. Generally, it was a cookie cutter hole in and out; no visible evidence of expansion and this saved a lot of meat over the younger days when numerous magazine articles convinced me that I needed heavy hollowpoint bullets at blistering velocities for deer or they’d bounce off or something. Given your options and having confidence in a proven load, I’d have no qualms whatever in going afield. Here’s the results I got from a recent Chrony session:

    The load is a 429215, 10gr Universal, Win LPP.
    Seated to just avoid brass contact with the forward driving band when crimped, for good OAL support in tube magazines. These were cast of 1:1 WW:soft lead with a bit of tin for good mold detail, gas-checked, sized .431 and lubed with soft NRA alox/beeswax formula in all grooves. This alloy is generally between 9-10 BHN and weighs in at 222gr.

    Revolver, 7.5” barrel: 1184-1272 fps for 10. First one out was 1184, all others were 1200+. I wasn’t trying that hard and got 2” from a rest at 30 yards, but the sun was getting low, glare on the sights, and I was in don’t-shoot-the-Chrony mode.

    Carbine, 20” barrel: 1400+ fps for all of them. Data was not saved. It was a repeat of revolver results but 200 fps faster. Accuracy was promising with holes touching, but this distance isn’t a real test for a carbine. This one deserves 100 yard work, but starting out at 1400-something fps, velocity at 100 will be insufficient for expansion if that’s important. This design has gotten the job done efficiently without it, but some people want it, so some 2400 or similar would be in order. The SWC shoulder isn’t wide, but I did notice occasional lever jiggling was needed to start them into the chamber in this carbine. YMMV. There was no leading with either test and a faint lube star was forming on the 20”. This indicates the load/pressures/velocities were “in the zone” for the alloy hardness and the lube proved sufficient to the task. Enough obturation for a good seal, but not so much as to pinch through the lube film and crayon lead onto the bore.

    Just for grins, I loaded a Lee 200gr RNFP of the same alloy, lubed with Emmert’s over 3gr of AA1680 followed by 32gr of Goex 3f, and a .010 card wad. Compression was .06 when seated to the crimp groove. From the carbine, this produced 1177 fps and hit a bit low on the paper. The bore was dark but I proceeded with the Universal loads. The bore was shiny clean on the next shot, so no harm, no foul (ahem). Prior experience tells me this load needs adjustments, but a very workable hunting load for conservative distances could be worked up, probably cleaner with better velocity.
    Last edited by yeahbub; 07-30-2020 at 12:31 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Wow, They don't bounce off!

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Really good input. Thanks.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Yeah! Amazing, ain't it? Hit them in the right spot with a mild load that speaks with some authority and they still go down pretty quick. Even if the muzzle blast doesn't obliterate all the underbrush for six feet in all directions. I don't know what those magazine guys were thinking. Even though the blast was survivable with enough shielding, having to walk around the crater in front of where I was sitting was such a hassle.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check