loading HBWC's (hollow base wadcutters)

[Billwnr]

How many on here remember the old advise of using unsized .38 cases for best accuracy with HBWC's? I'm on an accuracy project and loaded up some as a control group. I used sized cases and expected a tight fit with the bullets. Some poked in a sized case easily with fingers. I used both Remington and Hornady HBWC's and the Hornady ones were the ones that had an easy fit. I did not mike them yesterday but intend to later today to get the diameter.

[USSR]

I think you will find the Remington HBWC's measure .360". The Hornady's probably .357" (just guessing on them). That would account for the difference in ease in seating.

Don

[Thumbcocker]

An acquaintance told me about trying to get a .32 long free pistol chambered for wadcutters to shoot as well with hand loads as with factory loads. Could not come close until they stopped resizing the brass.

[ABJ]

I have done the un-sized vs sized cases. Without a doubt the un-sized wadcutter cases shot better. The regular cases, not much difference. I used factory HBWC and I used my own pure lead swaged HBWC. I also used the Lee 148 BNWC cast in different alloys. After thousands of rounds, the bottom line is the Lee cast in 20:1 and light crimp in the crimp groove was the best. No matter what I did the non flush rounds produced the best groups. The best case was R/P wadcutter cases followed by Federal wadcutter cases. I had to use Federal primers because of light hammer strikes on a tuned S&W model 15.
3.5 Unique or 3.4 HP-38 was the best powder on the cast, and 2.9 Red Dot on the HBWC. No ramsom rest was used just shot bags at 25 yds. My accuracy standard was center to center on 5 shot groups and a mim of five groups.
.7 inches averaged was the best I could get without a machine rest on the cast.
The HBWC would turn in some .6/ish groups but wouldn't hold on the 5 group avg. They would hold about .8/.9 on the five group avg. I think the HBWC was a lube issue causing a flyer not anything about the boolit. I used an Ultra Dot scope and did not shoot into the aming point.
As a side note, I keep a few hundred rounds loaded of the Unique load for family and friends for plinking and are accurate in any 38/357 I have ever put them in. Most times will shoot to the sights of fixed sight guns.
I hope my year plus testing will help you on your quest, that was the most satisfying endeavor I have ever had in load development

Tony.

[ABJ]

Billwnr, I forgot to mention one thing about the un-sized cases. A tight fit was not my problem on the wadcutter cases, just the opposite. My .358 boolits would fall all the way to the powder on about 20 precent, so on all my flush rounds I would smear a little soft sticky lube near the base to hold it until I could crimp it. My boolit was just enough to see above the case mouth or almost flush. Not like the factory Federal's which is roll crimped in front of the bullet. Make SURE the boolit will not drop any lower in the case. I'm sure you already know that, but a word of caution never hurts.
Tony

[Billwnr]

I have done the un-sized vs sized cases. Without a doubt the un-sized wadcutter cases shot better. The regular cases, not much difference. I used factory HBWC and I used my own pure lead swaged HBWC. I also used the Lee 148 BNWC cast in different alloys. After thousands of rounds, the bottom line is the Lee cast in 20:1 and light crimp in the crimp groove was the best. No matter what I did the non flush rounds produced the best groups. The best case was R/P wadcutter cases followed by Federal wadcutter cases. I had to use Federal primers because of light hammer strikes on a tuned S&W model 15.
3.5 Unique or 3.4 HP-38 was the best powder on the cast, and 2.9 Red Dot on the HBWC. No ramsom rest was used just shot bags at 25 yds. My accuracy standard was center to center on 5 shot groups and a mim of five groups.
.7 inches averaged was the best I could get without a machine rest on the cast.
The HBWC would turn in some .6/ish groups but wouldn't hold on the 5 group avg. They would hold about .8/.9 on the five group avg. I think the HBWC was a lube issue causing a flyer not anything about the boolit. I used an Ultra Dot scope and did not shoot into the aming point.
As a side note, I keep a few hundred rounds loaded of the Unique load for family and friends for plinking and are accurate in any 38/357 I have ever put them in. Most times will shoot to the sights of fixed sight guns.
I hope my year plus testing will help you on your quest, that was the most satisfying endeavor I have ever had in load development

Tony.

Good info. I'll use this next trip to the loading bench. Already got this week's test ammo assembled. I'm playing around with the HBWC's but my main focus is .357 loads and the 358429 bullet as it runs well thru my Star luber. I find the Keith style lube groove easiest to align in the Star. The HBWC loads is my control ammo for the test shooting.

[tazman]

This only works when loading for a single handgun.
Revolvers have chamber dimensions that differ, often for each handgun. Fired brass from the larger chambers will only work in those guns.
You will need to keep your brass segregated for each revolver you reload this way.

[1hole]

This only works when loading for a single handgun.
Revolvers have chamber dimensions that differ, often for each handgun. Fired brass from the larger chambers will only work in those guns.
You will need to keep your brass segregated for each revolver you reload this way.

True, but for best accuracy it's true for all firearms, not just revolvers. Loading for precision means custom fitting ammo for each weapon as an individual is mandatory. If a reloader is determined to blindly follow "instructions" and make ammo that will function and fire in ALL firearms that's okay but he may as well just buy factory stuff.

[oldsalt444]

Being a bullseye pistol competitor, I've been using 148 gr. HBWC bullets for a long time. In bullseye circles, "The Load" is 2.7 gr. WST or 2.8 BE and a light crimp. As accurate as you can possibly get. I've never heard of using unsized cases. You might get away with that in some revolvers and light loads, but definitely NOT in a Model 52 auto-loader. It is a moot point anyway. Since HBWCs are swaged and made of very soft lead and are designed to obturate and fill the bore, then if it gets a slightly squeezed down during the loading process it won't matter.

[Outpost75]

Being a bullseye pistol competitor, I've been using 148 gr. HBWC bullets for a long time. In bullseye circles, "The Load" is 2.7 gr. WST or 2.8 BE and a light crimp. As accurate as you can possibly get. I've never heard of using unsized cases. You might get away with that in some revolvers and light loads, but definitely NOT in a Model 52 auto-loader. It is a moot point anyway. Since HBWCs are swaged and made of very soft lead and are designed to obturate and fill the bore, then if it gets a slightly squeezed down during the loading process it won't matter.

In the Colt .38 Super National Match converted to .38 AMU, and in the later .38 Special Gold Cup we loaded unsized cases with Remington or Winchester factory lead bullets of .360" diameter, and 3 grains of 452AA. The final stage on the Phelps loading machine was a full-length cartridge sizer and profile die which gently sized the loaded rounds and applied a taper-crimp.

The Redding Profile crimp die works on exactly the same principle and achieves the same result. Using once-fired brass it was routine for a series of five consecutive ten-shot groups firing a Colt barrel held in a firing fixture, and return-to-battery rest, to average under 2 inches at 50 yards with the best individual groups under 1-1/2" and none larger than 2-1/2 inches.

[USSR]

I've got a Ransom Rest, and my dream is to do the ultimate .38 Special HBWC test. I've got every HBWC known to man, as well as one I cast myself. I've got WC brass (Remington, Winchester and Federal). I've got Bullseye, WST and 452AA powder, along with 2 S&W Model 14's just dying to burn some powder. I just need to define the parameters and find the time.

Don

[ABJ]

Not intending to hijack this thread but to Outpost. Do you recall the twist rate of the AMU and the 38 sp. barrels? I have a commercial colt conversion and a Travis Strahan PPC rebuild. I haven't checked the twist of either one yet but the PPC gun with 8 inch barrel with hold a six inch swinger at 109 yds (100 meters) with wadcutters with 3.5 unique.

USSR, For my own HBWC I cast them in pure lead and size and lube one lube groove then swedge them into hollow base. They come out at .358. That solved the dry lube leading once and for all.

I apologize to the OP for side stepping but thought some usefull info might be learned. The 38 special is such an interesting loading platform from Bullseye shooting, plinking and some defensive uses.
Tony

[tazman]

I've got a Ransom Rest, and my dream is to do the ultimate .38 Special HBWC test. I've got every HBWC known to man, as well as one I cast myself. I've got WC brass (Remington, Winchester and Federal). I've got Bullseye, WST and 452AA powder, along with 2 S&W Model 14's just dying to burn some powder. I just need to define the parameters and find the time.

Don

I would love to see the results of that test.
I wish you were closer. I would come and help you do it.

[Martin Luber]

Having fooled extensively with a 52, and another 32s&w long, l can tell you that depending on the sizer die, if the shell diameter is too small, the soft HBWC is swaged down during seating. Also brass matters. The old Remington wadcutter brass has 2 lines at midspan. It allows a 23/64 drill shank ( and hence a wc boolet) to seat deeper without crushing in the skirt. Many other brands are more like a +p design and with a cast wc, seated deep for the 52, you get a case bulge at the boolet base. Use the drill bit to sortvthem out.

Thats why the unsized cases work for 50 yard slow fire, and they do feed ok.

I use the Hornady profile crimp die as a sizer for 32s

Since the chamber isn't supported, you can't hotrod it.

Good luck

[USSR]

I would love to see the results of that test.
I wish you were closer. I would come and help you do it.

And you would be most welcome, tazman.

Don

[Outpost75]

Not intending to hijack this thread but to Outpost. Do you recall the twist rate of the AMU and the 38 sp. barrels? ...I haven't checked the twist of either one yet but the PPC gun with 8 inch barrel with hold a six inch swinger at 109 yds (100 meters) with wadcutters with 3.5 unique. Tony

Both the .38 Super barrels which were rechambered to AMU, and the .38 Special Colt Gold Cup barrels were one turn in 16 inches. The reworked .38 Super National Match pistols were locked breech the same as the .38 Super Auto, used the standard 16-pound recoil spring and would handle "full-charge" wadcutter ammunition with a 146-grain DEWC bullet and 3.2 to 3.5 grains of Bullseye or 452AA. Factory-loaded .38 AMU was loaded a wee bit hotter than .38 Special HBWC to cycle the locked breech guns. Later .38 Special Colt Gold Cups had no locking lugs on the barrel and were straight blow-back, with the factory recoil spring being 14 pounds.

If you want to have some fun, set up a PPC gun with one turn in ten-inch twist and use full-charge DEWCs with 3.5 grains of Bullseye or 3.9 grains of WST or 452AA. Set up your aiming point eight feet above the target backer, then scope the gun, shoot groups at 200 yards and watch the bullets fly downrange with one of the big Unertl team spotting scopes like we used for 1000 yards at Camp Perry. The popular wisdom is that wadcutters go unstable beyond about 50 yards. With powder puff loads and slow twists they do, but a talented CBA guy in Alaska using his Bob Day PPC gun with scope taught us all a lesson, published his results in The Fouling Shot, with pictures to prove it!

I was mightily impressed!

[ABJ]

Thanks Outpost, I think the Strahan gun is a 10 twist with his "Mascott II" irons. I pretty sure there is enough travel in the rear to go way past 100. It was built on a model 10 and uses a coil spring in double action only. sweetest trigger I have ever pulled. The Colt was built from a 38 super, just not sure what barrel he used.
As a side note, Travis was an AMU armorer and was in on the 38 AMU, just not sure to what extent. Fast twist barrels and wadcutters is a whole new world and I'm loving every min of it. Unfortunately he passed away a couple years ago and took a lot of knowledge with him.
Thanks for info,
Tony

[Billwnr]

Just bought a Caldwell chronograph and will find out tomorrow morning how close the book velocities are to actual velocities. Years ago using chronographs I learned not to use them if I couldn't stand the answer. I'm curious what the velocities are and what the sd's are.

[Outpost75]

The Saeco #348 DEWC with 3.5 grains of Bullseye in my 1943 Colt Official Police Heavy barrel with 0.003" barrel-cylinder gap gives 900 fps and shoots X-ring groups at 25 yards. My 6-inch 1941 S&W Hand Ejector .38 Special with similar tight barrel-cylinder gap does the same.

[Martin Luber]

The BBDEWC, l think is a Lyman, casts slightly small, and is good in the model 52.