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Thread: Did my die or Jwords do this?

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I didn’t read through the entire thread so this may have been mentioned but a few things come to mind.

    1. Check the expander button and measure the I.D. Of the sized case. I like around 0.02” difference to maintain nice even neck tension.
    2. Chamfer the neck.
    3. Use a Lyman M die. I use these for my problem children Cast and keeps me from sizing them down by mistake

    And by the way, been there, done that brother!

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    I’ve heard of the M dies but never seen or used one. How do they work?
    If you load several different calibers and diameters a better deal is to buy A Lee Universal Neck Expanding Die , it actually just flares the mouth... But NOE makes little M-die inserts to be used with this die...cheaper than a Lyman M-Die and the NOE M-die insert comes in many diameters .
    It's the neatest set up and works better than the Lyman die .
    Also lots of times you simply want to flare a neck ...like when using J-word bullets ...the Lee Universal Die will flare all calibers ...it's good to have on hand .
    From your photo's ...the crumpled cases need just a bit more flaring (belling) ...
    Gary
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  3. #43
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I own the Lee univeral expander die. I use it for cast. Never thought I would need to expand the necks for j words. Both RCBS and Speer told me I should not have to flair case necks with jacketed bullets. Both told me my issue was either an an out of spec, oversized bullet or undersized expander ball. Im happy to say the issue is now fixed whether it was the bullets, expander, or seater I dont know. Not going to wreck another expensive factory RP 35 whelen case to find out which one it was. I did measure the the replacement expander ball and it was the same size at the original. I'm guessing the bullets were to large in diameter as Speer factory reps told me they were larger than max spec. I'm sure my flat pusher insert didn't help as I'm guessing it wasnt aiding in perfectly linking up the bullet with my case either.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 08-08-2020 at 09:23 PM.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    I read this thread back at its inception and decided to stay out because you had so many responders hitting the nail on the head I figured I would keep out and observe.

    Just about every thing that might be said has been posted ..... almost.

    While I fully concur with the “M” die recommendation, there are two things I want to add to this mix:

    Your brass is likely quite soft (it’s new) and that adds to the problem. As you fire, size and fire again, your case mouths will become more brittle. If you anneal your neck and shoulder region you will go back there again.

    Lots of folks avoid case trimming but I do not.

    Here is what I would do: I would get all my brass uniform in length unless a case or two were way short. Then I would chamfer the inside of my cases and debur the outsides. Yes they are new but just do anyway. I like the new chamfer tools that are VLDs. You may even use a VLD and a standard angle one in succession.

    Next I would use a Lyman M die and carefully expand the case mouths to make your cases belled enough but not excessively. As an alternative the NOE plug for your Lee Universal tool may be fine but I do not have experience with them. Any way you go however I prefer the M die result much better than the Lee flare. The Lyman does a two step. That is much better. If the NOE plug fully gives you that true two step then bully for NOE!

    The reason I am preaching to uniform your case length is to give your cases mouths the same bell from number 1 to the last case you bell. The extra care with a inside case mouth chamfer tool saves extra belling just like having your cases uniform in length also reduces having to bell more.

    Remember, it is like bending a wire back and forth. Do it enough times and then you have two pieces. The same with your brass, over work it and it hits the trash can sooner.

    You can send bullets to Speer and they blame the die manufacturer. Send the expander to RCBS and cold water gets thrown at the bullet maker, but you are stuck in the middle.

    The next thing we want to avoid is having a seating die BODY set too low. Many respondents warned you about that. I always, ALWAYS set my TRIMMED case in with no bullet and raise the ram and bring the seater die down to just kiss the crimp ring of the seater die to the case mouth and then screw it back up a bit. You must maintain clearance unless you want to crimp while seating.

    Now I roll both ways on this subject as some I seat and crimp in one operation. Others I do separately. But if you do both together you are running a risk of inducing a neck collapse. So often even if I am crimping with the same die I will still separate the operations.

    While I do not trim brass upon each loading, I am very reluctant to seat and crimp cases that have been fired enough to vary in length.

    I am a big proponent of rotating a case as I begin seating a bullet. You want to avoid forcing a bullet that is leaning into your case mouths. I call the process “mini pushes”.

    A press without compound leverage is actually an asset here for belling and seating because you have better contrast in pressure differences than with a compound press.

    As the bullet leans you relax, rotate and re-push. You move the press ram ever so slightly higher then relax and rotate the case 120 or so degrees and push again.

    I particularly do the rotate case business with my varmint ammo but in the case of collapsing necks, I would target that ammo with it as well. It can help with accuracy and reduce case los. What’s not to like?

    The final item is a tilted bullet catching it’s crimp cannelure on the edge of the case mouth. All the steps I have outlined to this point either precludes that or reduces the chance of it including the mini push, rotate process.

    Lastly, since you had to bell your case mouths, even if I do not care to actually crimp my ammo, I make certain that the bell is flattened.

    So that is my .02 worth

    Enjoy!

    Three44s
    Last edited by Three44s; 08-09-2020 at 05:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207

    “There is more to this than dumping lead in a hole.”

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Three 44’s you and I load the same. I trimmed, chamfered, and deburred all of these brand new cases. I do this with every case, every time I reload. Long lengthy process but I want to keep it consistent. I also rotate my cases as soon as the bullet starts to seat for nice even seating. If it wasn’t the bullet it was my fault with the seater insert I stoned flat . I did this to flatten out the finning on my cast HP boolits. Im sure It caused the jacketed bullets to unevenly seat. It works great for big flat metplates like the lee 300 grainers in 44 and 45 cal but believe it was probably part or all of the issue with my 35’s. I did this to avoid cutting a ring around my cast 35 Rem boolits when seating them. It worked but also widened and flattened my HP cavity so I stopped using it. I forgot that I installed it in my 35 Whelen seater die when loading cast in it previously. By installing the conical insert it keeps the HP in its narrower taper so it feeds better in my pump and lever actions as well.


    Here’s a pic of it after I stoned and oxpho blued it. I’m sure with an uneven soft lead tip on my hot cores were causing an uneven seating. Like I said above they now seat but I still have a good amount of force to do so right when the case lip expands over the bullet base then it’s smooth sailing. I’m sure it’s the new brass and the bullets will slide in easier next loading. I’ll keep my stoned flat seaters for the 44 and 45’s. I’m sure most or all of this issue was caused by me and my flat seater die. Thanks for the help.


    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 08-09-2020 at 05:04 PM. Reason: Spelling

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Tripplebeards,

    Oh, I think the bullets indeed triggered the problem alright. I feel a sort of bulge at the bases of j words with supposedly square bases from time to time.

    Glad you brought up the matter about your custom nose punch though because that could reduce the effectiveness of mini push bullet seating.

    Many years ago a then retired volunteer fire fighter told me his theory on accidents:

    He said that an accident consisted of a chain of events. Along the way, each link was another step towards the incident. It did not occur (at least rarely) because of just one but rather it took some set of them being unbroken the accident to happen.

    In the instance of your damaged cases, I think some of that theory applies. You had some factory bullets a wee bit out of spec, you were working with new soft case mouths and your seater plug may be causing a rigid alignment of the bullet to the case mouth and you were not belling the case mouths because you had not experienced this situation before.

    Something else I thought of that could help is to use a wrench socket filled with steel wool spun from a drill applied to your case mouths. This polishes the ragged burrs left from chamfering your case mouths.

    The other thought is to very, very lightly lube your bullet bases. Something that dries or a sparing hint of a wax lube ..... the tub from Lyman labeled Ideal?

    Three44s
    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207

    “There is more to this than dumping lead in a hole.”

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomme boy View Post
    Needs more inside chamfer or bell the mouth
    Those appear to be new cases. Chamfering alone will probably be enough to let the bullets get started without hanging up on the mouth. A little belling/flaring will assure it.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check