WidenersMidSouth Shooters SupplyReloading EverythingLoad Data
Lee PrecisionRepackboxRotoMetals2PBcastco
Inline Fabrication Titan Reloading
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 47

Thread: Did my die or Jwords do this?

  1. #21
    Vendor Sponsor

    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ojai CA
    Posts
    9,871
    3B" you definitely need to flare your case mouths a little more to accept a bullet with a square base. If the base is square, and the case mouth is square and smaller,,, They won't go together. Period!

    You can just get a Lee Flaring Die which is totally adjustable to create any amount of flare you want and they are like $10.

    Or you can use Boat Tailed Bullets which will go in the hole.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,491
    I have lee universal flaring die. I use it exclusively for cast. I’ve never had to flair for J words to seat into bottle neck cartridges in 20 plus years of reloading so this is a new one for me. No issues with the same bullet seating them in 35 Rem RP cases without flairing the necks. I stated above I did have an issue but it was with another caliber and not the 35 Rem. So why do they work without flaring in my 35 REM’s? I’m guessing the new die set’s expander ball is undersized? Either way I’ll be flairing my Whelen cases. A couple of the ones I did get to seat went in very easy and a couple went in with some force for some reason.

  3. #23
    Vendor Sponsor

    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ojai CA
    Posts
    9,871
    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    3B" If the base is square, and the case mouth is square and smaller,,, They won't go together. Period!

    Randy
    This is what you are experiencing. With cast not enough flare = lead shaving. Copper doesn't shave as easily and thin brass gives up before it can shave the copper. Hence your destroyed cases.

    Or you could put your bullets in a lathe and file a radius on the base of each one. I think flaring is easier.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,491
    I must have some hard casings because I did shave some of the brass off the bullets as well.

  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master bedbugbilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    MI (summer) - AZ (winter)
    Posts
    5,098
    I use a Lyman M die for both cast and jacketed.

    I started with a Lee universal expanding flare die as shown above and it worked O.K. but finally graduated to using M dies for my rifle loading. If the OP goes the route of trying a M die - I would advise getting a Lee universal flaring die and going with the expanding/flaring plugs from NOE that can be used with the Lee die. Over time, as I added new cartridges, I added new M dies for them - and it adds up dollar wise. If a person was stating out loading rifle and or pistol, in the long run it would be cheaper to go with the Lee die and buy the NOE expanding/flaring plugs. You could assemble a pretty nice "set" of various size plugs without spending the amount it would cost to buy individual M dies for each caliber. While the M dies consist of a "long" or "short" body die, depending not he cartridge - I guessing that you could also buy individual M die stems for the calibers but it still seems like the Lee die with NoE plugs would be a cheaper way to go and do everything a person wanted?

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Cecilia, Kentucky
    Posts
    6,689
    Bedbugbilly, I've given thought to the noe M die plugs and lee die body vs the Lyman m dies. The advantage would be the various larger sizes in my view. I hate having to readjust a die ever time I change calibers. I'd rather pay 20 bucks and have a dedicated M die for each caliber I load, at least the most loaded. I haven't changed over yet but I'm wanting to go the M die path for my pistol calibers over the belling dies.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Eastern WY
    Posts
    1,954
    I run NEW cases through a neck sizing die without the expand/decap rod (Redding, Redding Bushing, RCBS, Lyman...) then I chamfer inside and out. I then expand neck with Lyman or NOE 'M' type neck expander. Dragging an expander ball thru the neck, new or fired can lead to crooked cases. I full-length or neck-size without expanding case neck, THEN use the Lyman/NOE neck expander for all bullets, lead or jacketed. I have crumpled a few cases or damaged some bullets before I settled on this process.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,612
    You cannot seat any old bullet into any old case without looking and feeling what you are doing.
    I have loaded many .38 Specials, .357 Magnums and .35 Rem over the years and have never had that problem.
    Most of the loads for the .35 Rem were for the 180 grn Speer rifle bullet. I have not had any problem with it either,
    but the large flat nose on many bullets will refuse to allow a crooked bullet to right it self. I can feel a bullet that is crooked and I spin the cases with a finger as they enter the seating die so the flat bullet nose enters the cone of the seating punch.
    If this does not work an M die is used to expand the cases but so far I have only used the M die on cast bullets and for straight cases.

    What you want to watch out for are some loading dies have a built in crimp shoulder. When you run a bullet into the seater the wide flat nose of the short 180 grn Speer bullet allows it to tilt over and catch on either the crimp shoulder of the seater body or on the edge of the seating punch. Such a tilted bullet will ruin you cases. Spinning the case as you run the bullet up helps too. When the bullet tip catches in something even an M die will not cure the problem.
    I have used the 220 gr Speer also and it has the same bullet tip but it is longer and does not tip over a much or as far but it can have the same problem in some dies.
    Pistol bullets will also ruin cases by tilting over and catching the interior of the die. You just need to use M type dies and spin the case if necessary. Sometimes you may have to change brands of seater dies.
    I have used the 200 grn Rem core Lokt RN and spitzer bullets, 200 grn Sierra, and 200 grn Hornady RN and spitzer bullets in the .35 Rem.
    All of these bullets are short and may have a tendency to tip over. The Hornady bullets have a huge base radius that helps prevent the problem.
    This sort of problem also occurs with the flat edges of the 300 grn Hornady .458 rifle bullet in some dies. Just do a better job of expanding your cases and be sure the bullet is not tilting and catching the interior of the die. Spinning the case helps the nose of the bullet jump off of the edge so it can straighten up. More expansion of the case mouth so the bullet base starts out entirely inside the case helps keep the bullets straight.
    EDG

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    South Western NC
    Posts
    3,820
    I don't think your die or bullets did that; your photos show the end result of trying to push a solid plug (bullet) into a too small hole (case mouth) that's being firmly held too small by the die's crimp ring due to improper seater die body misadjustment. No mouth chamfer, two thou of oversize bullets nor lack of mouth flaring should be causing that much case mouth/neck deformation.

    I wonder ... do you have your seating die set so far down that its crimping ring has firmly pinched off the case mouth before bullet entry even starts? Try backing your seater off a couple of turns and readjust the seater plug down, then seat one of your largest bullets and see what happens.

    Lee's "Universal Expander" die is a good tool if you need it but the "expander" part of its name is a misnomer. It's only a universal mouth flaring tool, it's not at all a neck expander in the technical sense reloaders need. Lyman's very old "M" die (and it's RCBS/Redding copies) has long been the best expander/flaring plug design on the market for both jacketed and cast bullets. (I don't know if I could comfortably reload much of anything without my collection of "M"s.)

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    546
    Problems like those above are one reason that some of us may use a die set made up of different brands. I always chamber and then bell case mouths, a practice that prevents problems. Ditto for M dies.

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,491
    UPS already picked up my two boxes of bullets or I would’ve tried to go through and flair the necks. I’ll see what Speer says when they receive them in a couple days. RCBS is sending a out a replacement ball/primer pusher insert as well. I headed to the range today to try out the five ladder loads of H322 with the 180 grain speers I loaded up. All the groups were not impressive accept for one. 59.5 grains of H322. I seated my bullet .002” farther out than Hodgdon’s website. The book load max loading was 58 grains and said it was 48,000 CUP. SAMMI says 52,000 CUP is max for the Whelen so I did the math and loaded in .5 increments to 60 grains with zero signs of showing pressure. I figured Sixty grains should still be at or right under 51,000 CUP. I remember a couple of the bullets in my ladder test reloads seated harder than others. I also saw a shaving or two of copper from the bullet around my crimp on a couple. A shaving must have stayed in the chamber as it made an impression on the side of a fired cases.

    59.5 grains of H322 is the winner. This is a three shot group at 100 yards. The barrel gets pretty hot after three rounds and if I ever had to shoot more then three times at a deer I’d pack it up and go home. I remember the 59.5 grain load was one of two loads that all three bullets felt like they were seated smoothly with even pressure. I also crimped them with my lee custom 35 whelen collet factory crimp die.

    Not bad for a 7600 pump gun...





    When the bullets come back and I get my replacement expander ball from RCBS I’ll go through the motions and try and load one up without flaring the neck case first. If I feel any resistance I’ll be flaring them all from now on.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 06-29-2020 at 09:06 PM.

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master


    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aberdeen, South Dakota
    Posts
    7,136
    These are flat base bullets, correct? Yes, you need to flare the case. You always need to flare cases, the one single exception is a boat tail jacketed bullet can self center itself. Other than that one exeption, all other bullets jacketed, cast, or other, require the case to be belled. You can get away with way less with a jacketed bullet than cast, but the bullet base needs to be able to start into the mouth regardless.

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,491
    I must have gotten luck all these years since I haven’t had any issues loading the same bullet in my 35 Rem cases. Also Ive loaded 1000’s of 60 grain flat base hornady vmax and .308 RP core loct bullets with zero seating issues.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    OKC , Oklahoma
    Posts
    3,384
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    I must have gotten luck all these years since I haven’t had any issues loading the same bullet in my 35 Rem cases. Also Ive loaded 1000’s of 60 grain flat base hornady vmax and .308 RP core loct bullets with zero seating issues.
    I think I am lucky to , never had that happen loading for 356 and 358 winchester with many brands And styles of jacketed bullets loaded with 2 die RCBS and Lee dies.
    But like EDG pointed out go slow and feel the process to get feed back from the tools.

  15. #35
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    20
    I love the 35 Whelen, and I shoot the AI version.

    May I suggest: neck size only.
    So much easier, and I never get crumpled cases.
    IMHO Hornady makes the best neck sizing dies (I'm not a shill for them).

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,491
    I use them in pump rifle so imo I need to bump the shoulders back for reliable feeding.

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master


    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aberdeen, South Dakota
    Posts
    7,136
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    I must have gotten luck all these years since I haven’t had any issues loading the same bullet in my 35 Rem cases. Also Ive loaded 1000’s of 60 grain flat base hornady vmax and .308 RP core loct bullets with zero seating issues.
    You've seated flat base bullets in non-flared brass? I've tried it a couple times myself, and I just don't see how it can be done. The bullet base on jacketed bullets is slightly rounded, but it still wont sit on the brass. You kind of half teeter the bullet on there, run it into the die, and half the time you get the result you posted. I've never heard of anyone seating without flaring (except some jacketed boat tails).

    It seems a heck of a lot easier to just flare as intended.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    South Western NC
    Posts
    3,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    UPS already picked up my two boxes of bullets or I would’ve tried to go through and flair the necks. I’ll see what Speer says when they receive them in a couple days. RCBS is sending a out a replacement ball/primer pusher insert as well. I headed to the range today to try out the five ladder loads of H322 with the 180 grain speers I loaded up. All the groups were not impressive accept for one. 59.5 grains of H322. I seated my bullet .002” farther out than Hodgdon’s website. The book load max loading was 58 grains and said it was 48,000 CUP. SAMMI says 52,000 CUP is max for the Whelen so I did the math and loaded in .5 increments to 60 grains with zero signs of showing pressure. I figured Sixty grains should still be at or right under 51,000 CUP. I remember a couple of the bullets in my ladder test reloads seated harder than others. I also saw a shaving or two of copper from the bullet around my crimp on a couple. A shaving must have stayed in the chamber as it made an impression on the side of a fired cases.

    59.5 grains of H322 is the winner. This is a three shot group at 100 yards. The barrel gets pretty hot after three rounds and if I ever had to shoot more then three times at a deer I’d pack it up and go home. I remember the 59.5 grain load was one of two loads that all three bullets felt like they were seated smoothly with even pressure. I also crimped them with my lee custom 35 whelen collet factory crimp die.

    Not bad for a 7600 pump gun...


    When the bullets come back and I get my replacement expander ball from RCBS I’ll go through the motions and try and load one up without flaring the neck case first. If I feel any resistance I’ll be flaring them all from now on.
    A different expander ball isn't likely change anything for you.

  19. #39
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,491
    I called speer today to see if they had a chance to look at my bullets. Speer told me that some were larger than their max acceptable spec range so they are replacing the two boxes I sent in with new replacement bullets. The Speer customer service rep told me they still should have not been far enough out of spec to crush case necks and figured my RCBS expansion ball was out of spec and to blame. RCBS did sent a replacement primer knock out rod with expansion ball so I’ll have to measure both when I switch them out. Speer told me When seating the .358 hot cores in bottle neck cartridges I should not have to flare my case necks. I’ll give it a try with the new components and see what happens.

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,491
    I wanted to follow up on this thread. I received replacement bullets from Speer and a replacement expander ball from RCBS. I also changed out my flat seater die to a conical seater die thinking it would help center my bullets into the case necks. I had a chance to try it out this morning and loaded up 25 rounds without an issues today. I can say it still requires a little bit more force than any other round have loaded for in the last 25 years...but they all seated just fine. It's just when the bullet first stretches the case neck is where the resistance is and then it slides smoothly the rest of the way down while seating it. I still used my Lee collete factory crimp die since I used it to dial in my load previously even though I can tell there is a good amount a neck pressure from the way my j words seated. A few seated with less pressure than others for some reason. All brass was new virgin RP and sized and trimmed the same.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check