Inline FabricationRepackboxRotoMetals2MidSouth Shooters Supply
Titan ReloadingLee PrecisionADvertise hereWideners

Donate Now Goal amount for this year: 6000 USD, Received: 3655 USD (61%)
Our Annual server fund drive is going on now! This donation drive helps fund Cast Boolits for an entire year, and helps support our 2nd amendment rights! You can donate by Paypal by clicking the DONATE button. Or by Cash / Check / MO to the address below:

Willy Snyder
PO Box 2732
Pocatello, ID 83206
****Due to overwhelming e-mails, I will be very slow in updating this list. Please bear with me!****


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 29

Thread: Round nose flat point vs. Semi-wadcutter Question

  1. #1

    Question Round nose flat point vs. Semi-wadcutter Question

    If used in the same cartridge, at equal velocity, and approximately the same boolit weight, how does a round nose flat point compare to the semi-wadcutter (Keith type) in effectiveness on game?

    Thanks in advance.

    Dipperman
    "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades." D. Paulson

  2. #2
    Boolit Master JoeJames's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Arkansas Delta
    Posts
    543
    Per Elmer Keith, round nose zips right through; no stopping power.
    Britons shall never be slaves.

  3. #3
    AKA: GRMPS Conditor22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    2,016
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJames View Post
    Per Elmer Keith, round nose zips right through; no stopping power.
    this may be true BUT --- he's asking about round nose FLAT point

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Wheelguns 1961's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Mid atlantic area
    Posts
    811
    I think it depends on the individual design, or size of the meplat. Bigger meplat, more damage.
    Due to the price of primers, warning shots will no longer be given!

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    8,248
    My experience on deer and hogs has been that in soft 8-10 BHN alloy at subsonic revolver velocity in calibers similar to the .44-40 or .45 Colt, for bullets of the same weight and diameter of meplat, it makes absolutely no difference whatever.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	43-257H-D.jpg 
Views:	31 
Size:	23.7 KB 
ID:	264068   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	43-250H-D.jpg 
Views:	31 
Size:	21.5 KB 
ID:	264069  
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy Tom_in_AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    My experience on deer and hogs has been that in soft 8-10 BHN alloy at subsonic revolver velocity in calibers similar to the .44-40 or .45 Colt, for bullets of the same weight and diameter of meplat, it makes absolutely no difference whatever.
    I’d tend to agree. I doubt it makes a difference.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    18,229
    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    My experience on deer and hogs has been that in soft 8-10 BHN alloy at subsonic revolver velocity in calibers similar to the .44-40 or .45 Colt, for bullets of the same weight and diameter of meplat, it makes absolutely no difference whatever.
    My experience on deer with the 357, 41 and 44 Magnums with velocity in the 1200 - 1450 fps range it makes no meaningful difference with hard cast or HPs that properly expand bullet either.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    8,248
    Graphs generated using MacPherson WTI model for .38 Special+P 158-grain at 940 fps, for full wadcutter, SWC and LRN nose shapes, presuming NO expansion:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	158Wadcutter940fps.png 
Views:	101 
Size:	4.5 KB 
ID:	264087Click image for larger version. 

Name:	158SWC940fps.png 
Views:	96 
Size:	4.5 KB 
ID:	264088Click image for larger version. 

Name:	158LRN940fps.png 
Views:	92 
Size:	4.4 KB 
ID:	264089
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master



    missionary5155's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Back in Sunny, Warm Arequipa till 2020
    Posts
    6,084
    The wider the flat the more energy transfer with all else being equal. But if there is only a very small diameter difference in the flats then the target probably will never indicate much difference.
    The big overlooked advantage with the SWC is if you will look at it from the nose nearly the whole diameter is flat whereas the FN round nose only has that flat on the nose.
    Plus the SWC has a structural advantage. That sub diameter nose sitting out there will expand more rapidly than a RN structure again all other factors being the same.
    Mike in LLama Land
    "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
    Male Guanaco out in dry lakebed at 10,800 feet south of Arequipa.

  10. #10
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

    waksupi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Somers, Montana, a quaint little drinking village,with a severe hunting and fishing problem.
    Posts
    17,862
    Quote Originally Posted by missionary5155 View Post
    The wider the flat the more energy transfer with all else being equal. But if there is only a very small diameter difference in the flats then the target probably will never indicate much difference.
    The big overlooked advantage with the SWC is if you will look at it from the nose nearly the whole diameter is flat whereas the FN round nose only has that flat on the nose.
    Plus the SWC has a structural advantage. That sub diameter nose sitting out there will expand more rapidly than a RN structure again all other factors being the same.
    Mike in LLama Land
    Considering the splash effect, I doubt the shoulder ever touches flesh.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master



    missionary5155's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Back in Sunny, Warm Arequipa till 2020
    Posts
    6,084
    Well somewhere down along that wound channel it has to start causing drag / damage.
    "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
    Male Guanaco out in dry lakebed at 10,800 feet south of Arequipa.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    18,229
    "Considering the splash effect, I doubt the shoulder ever touches flesh."

    That does seem to be the prevailing theory proffered by proponents of the WFN style of bullet. However, as i mentioned earlier I never have seen any real terminal difference between a hard cast SWC vs a hard cast WFN given the same cartridge, bullet weight and velocity. A quicker death will result from more damage to vital organs. I've read of "improved" terminal performance of the WFN, especially in handgun cartridges. However, as previously stated I have not seen it with numerous deer hunted and deer/livestock "put down" when injured.

    Where I have seen a marked difference of improved terminal effectiveness [as in quickness of kill and lessor distance traveled after shot] has been with either bullet cast of softer more malleable alloy that gives proper expansion. Proper expansion provides for more terminal damage, that is a fact that is well known and proven.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #13
    Moderator Emeritus


    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    SW Montana
    Posts
    10,849
    Get a copy of Veral Smith's little blue book. His claims are that putting grease on a swc's shoulder and shooting into recoverable material show the shoulder of a swc never even hit paper on a target.
    For me the answer is that assuming equal meplates you would get equal results. Most swc's are smaller in the meplate than rf's. Are they enough to do the job? generally yes but it depends on the job you ask it to do. IME, an 80 lb whitetail takes less to kill than a 350 lb cow elk.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  14. #14
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,596
    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    Get a copy of Veral Smith's little blue book. His claims are that putting grease on a swc's shoulder and shooting into recoverable material show the shoulder of a swc never even hit paper on a target.
    For me the answer is that assuming equal meplates you would get equal results. Most swc's are smaller in the meplate than rf's. Are they enough to do the job? generally yes but it depends on the job you ask it to do. IME, an 80 lb whitetail takes less to kill than a 350 lb cow elk.
    I've been trying to buy his book for 2 years. The guy refuses to answer a phone or email. I can promise you the shoulder on a SWC touches the paper. That's why the SWC exists! It cuts a clean, full diameter hole in paper just like a wadcutter.

    Does it touch meat in an animal? I'm not so sure about that one. From what I'm finding, the nose on a RNFP and your Elmer Keith SWC are pretty much the same in all calibers. All being around that 65%-70% ish range. Of course there are thousands of variations of each, it's hard to generalize.

    I have little experience hunting with hard cast, solid, non-expanding bullets. I wasn't impressed with them. Many disagree with me. Lots of proponents of the WFN, but when I saw what a 357 mag did compared to a 44 mag, both with Keith SWC's, I just didn't see much difference in the wound on a whitetail. That's a .250" meplat vs a .275" meplat.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Moorhead, MN
    Posts
    441
    When I showed a former muzzle loader and BPC shooter and hunter the slightly concave wide nose on the Lee 44cal 305gr bullet, he was impressed. He predicted that bullet's sharp edge at its nose would grab soft tissue for a bigger wound channel, and of course it is heavy enough to break bone.

  16. #16
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    It’s a dry heat.....
    Posts
    85

    Cool

    Considering the splash effect, I doubt the shoulder ever touches flesh.
    Back in the 1990s, Ross Seyfried tested this in one of the slicks (Guns & Ammo?). He mixed up pails of jello filled with sand and fired both LFN and SWC bullets (.45”?) painted with black paint into the gel. The photos definitively showed that the SWC shoulders had no abrasion, they were still covered with paint. The noses of all bullets were void of paint. At the test velocity, the SWC shoulder didn’t touch anything, indicating that wounding is performed by the bullet’s nose.



    .

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Quilcene, Washington
    Posts
    3,093
    My own terminal ballistics test showed that, while the RNFP penetrate slightly farther, the difference isn't meaningful.

  18. #18
    I would like to express my sincere appreciation and thanks to everyone who responded to my question. Your responses have been very informative and helpful.

    Thank you all very much,
    Dipperman
    "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades." D. Paulson

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Bryson City, NC
    Posts
    313
    As the real answer is bullet placement, the rest is to close to argue about. Put either one in the right place, dead is dead.
    CF
    Vote Independent, vote Republican, vote Democratic, just don’t vote Incumbent!
    I believe in the Bible, Freedom, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and personal responsibility. My government believes I am narrow minded, intolerant and dangerous.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Southwest MO.
    Posts
    1,837
    I too have always questioned whether the shoulder did any work. However I can say that my 454-424 cut a clean 45 cal hole at the entrance on deer.
    The lee 452-255RF has the same meplat “.320 “ and cuts about the same hole just not as clean as the semi wadcutter.
    Like others have said I can’t tell a difference in terminal performance.
    With a small cup HP in either blood trails are better if/ when it exits but terminal performance remains about the same.

    For the record I deer hunt with the NOE copy of the Lee with a cup Hp. Performance has been excellent on several deer. I see no reason to change.
    Some people live and learn but I mostly just live

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check