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Thread: Brass gate valve on lead melter

  1. #21
    Boolit Mold
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    I guess I’ll return it and come up with something else.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master KYCaster's Avatar
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    Don't give up on your gate valve so quickly.
    I used one for several years on a 300 lb. melting pot over a wood fire. Never had any issues with the stem packing.
    It may not the best solution for what you want to do but it worked fine for me dealing with large volumes of alloy.
    Issues you'll have to deal with:
    When everything cools the valve will be frozen shut, you'll have to heat it to open, then the handle will be hot. I put my valve close to the pot so the fire that melted the lead also heated the valve.
    Constantly opening and closing the valve is a pain. Once you have it open, leave it open. Use an empty ingot mold to push the full one out of the way.
    When the pot is empty there will still be some lead in the valve seat. Make sure everything is still hot when you close the valve so the gate can push the molten lead out. There will still be some dross accumulated in the valve seat that may cause some dripping...just deal with it.

    Good luck
    Jerry
    Buzzard's luck!! Can't kill nothin', nothin'll die!!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYCaster View Post
    Don't give up on your gate valve so quickly.
    I used one for several years on a 300 lb. melting pot over a wood fire. Never had any issues with the stem packing.
    It may not the best solution for what you want to do but it worked fine for me dealing with large volumes of alloy.
    Issues you'll have to deal with:
    When everything cools the valve will be frozen shut, you'll have to heat it to open, then the handle will be hot. I put my valve close to the pot so the fire that melted the lead also heated the valve.
    Constantly opening and closing the valve is a pain. Once you have it open, leave it open. Use an empty ingot mold to push the full one out of the way.
    When the pot is empty there will still be some lead in the valve seat. Make sure everything is still hot when you close the valve so the gate can push the molten lead out. There will still be some dross accumulated in the valve seat that may cause some dripping...just deal with it.

    Good luck
    Jerry
    Mine is going to be wood fired. I did 230 lbs of ingots in a metal 5 gallon pail on a fire a few weeks ago and I poured them. I have 2 45 gallon barrels of roof flashings to do next. I’ll probably just do a needle and seat by machining the end of a threaded rod to a 45. I’ll have to decide whether or not centred in the propane tank pot is going to be an issue. I could put it off to one side, but then I might just build a pot instead of the propane tank. It’s going to get welded into the top of a 45 gallon drum that will serve as a wood stove to heat the built in pot.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winger Ed. View Post
    Yeah,,,, in the old days you could grab a tuft of Asbestos and stick in there.
    But,,, ya gotta take what's left

    If anything- a little pinch of pink panther from the attic should do fine.
    When the gate is closed, or all the way open, it won't want to leak anyway.
    I would replace it with graphite valve packing.

    I have a full tray of the old asbestos valve packing washers in many different sizes.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    get a GAS valve used for natural gas, it will work, but remember lead will stick to brass. so you will need to close at cool down and heat with a torch to open

  6. #26
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    And please do not use any of the ball valves sold by Lowe's or Home Depot. Most if not all will have nylon, polymer or some simlilar form of material that form the seat around the ball. Most are made for water service but even the ones rated at 300 or 600 psi are only rated for oil water or gas. As an operating supervisor spent many an hour replacing brass valves that failed when rated for 125 psi on steam lines. One tiny leak and both the gate and seats gets cut as if someone use a torch on it. Watched a 300 psi brass valve blow out the entire top of the valve when the pressure limits were exceeded. Was not funny and expensive clean up. All steel rated to 2000 psi steam service was the answer. You won't find valves like that at the big box stores. I had an incorrectly installed brass valve installed in a steam line come apart in my hands when starting an old steam driven double acting duplex oil pump. Good thing I was wearing gloves. Had a guy at work who got caught in the act swapping out old brass valves with new ones. And selling the old brass valves for scrap. Problem was he didn't install the same rated pressure ones he took out. After a few unexplained failures someone got the idea about changing out the old valves for new. He got caught and in his garage was a 55 gallon drum half full of old valves. Lost his job and benefits. Frank

  7. #27
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    He was looking at using a GATE valve, not a BALL valve. Still, the garbage sold at big box stores are water valves with brass/bronze bodies with elastomers good to only ~300°F, it even that high. It has nothing to do with the pressure rating, it is the materials of construction and the heat they can withstand.

    All SST with Grafoil packing is about the only thing that will withstand 750+ °F.

  8. #28
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    What about the type made of steel with the thread stuck out through the handwheel?...Ive got some of 1" bore ,I think ,part of a painting job ,never got included in the return shipment......Only catch is the pipe connection is smooth ,needs to be welded .Ive got some biggies too ,dunno where ,or I might have scrapped them.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    What about the type made of steel with the thread stuck out through the handwheel?...Ive got some of 1" bore ,I think ,part of a painting job ,never got included in the return shipment......Only catch is the pipe connection is smooth ,needs to be welded .Ive got some biggies too ,dunno where ,or I might have scrapped them.
    I state again.......................it's not about the pressure rating or the steel or SST body........it's about the elastomer seals around the stem and other moving parts.

  10. #30
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    Many of the guys casting large amounts of lead, making sailboat keels, just use pipe and a 90 degree ell. The outlet pipe ends at a point above the top of the molten lead and the outlet is pivoted down to pour.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1cpJBtWnQg
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  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Rcbs and Lyman both sell a simple cast iron lead pot holds 10 lbs and will work over any heat source , wood fire, bbq grill kitchen gas stove burner or an electric hot plate.
    They sell an inexpensive ladle that will last a long time.
    Mid south shooting supply used to sell them, or probably Cabelas.
    I use them for many years casting bullets,melting lead.
    Good for starters or forever
    No leaking or clogged up spouts like on a bottom pour.
    Just my 2 cents.

  12. #32
    Boolit Bub
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    Don’t do it brass will dissolve in molten lead. Surprisingly aluminum will also dissolve in molten lead. Stainless steel or cast iron work well. Just about all gas valves used to be made of cast iron.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master

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    I saw one pot with a spout on the bottom that looked like a bottle stopper used in antique beer bottles. The difference was it was all steel. I was designed to be either open or closed. Once empty, it was closed, open, the stopper pulled up and away. Pretty slick, but I prefer a big pot and a 4 lb (by volume) ladle as that fills my ingot molds. If I were smelting for larger ingots, my smelting pot would be made to suspend over the heat source, and tilt to pour.
    Common sense Gun Safety . . .

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mollyboy View Post
    Don’t do it brass will dissolve in molten lead. Surprisingly aluminum will also dissolve in molten lead. Stainless steel or cast iron work well. Just about all gas valves used to be made of cast iron.
    Brass melts at 1,650 to 1,720 °F depending on the alloy

    Aluminum melts at around 1,221°F

    Kindly explain the source of you data about those metals melting/dissolving in molten lead, which melts at only 622°F.

    Thanks.

    As I stated, anyone considering using some kind of ball or gate valve on a lead pot has to worry about, not the metals in the valve, but the seals and packing able to withstand molten Pb temps. 800° is a good rating to shoot for. Always allow some headroom! Grafoil is the only material I know of that will withstand very high temps. Not rubbers or fluorocarbons!

    bangerjim

  15. #35
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    somewhere I have an all steel valve that came off a hydraulic machine or tar pot not quite sure where it is right now but will take pictures if I come across it. its called a plug valve there are no seals in it, the open closing lever turns left and right like a ball valve but the valve part is tapered into the valve body and has a slot through the center of the part you turn left or right, its all steel, regardless it would have to be hot too open or closed after the first time smelting pot is used. they are commonly available in brass or bronze and have a spring that holds the tapered cone valve into the valve body. this type valve might work well.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmbif View Post
    somewhere I have an all steel valve that came off a hydraulic machine or tar pot not quite sure where it is right now but will take pictures if I come across it. its called a plug valve there are no seals in it, the open closing lever turns left and right like a ball valve but the valve part is tapered into the valve body and has a slot through the center of the part you turn left or right, its all steel, regardless it would have to be hot too open or closed after the first time smelting pot is used. they are commonly available in brass or bronze and have a spring that holds the tapered cone valve into the valve body. this type valve might work well.
    We all know how fast molten Pb sets up outside the pot! You would have to heat-trace with a gas flame such a plug valve or it would freeze up in a matter of seconds just sitting there. And, yes, there are generally no soft seals in a ground plug-style valve. But getting all the gunk in the bottom of a Pb re-melting pot down in that valve would create constant leaks!!!! It might work well for hot tar or hydraulic oils , but not for re-melting dirty gritty Pb.

    Not trying to be a Debbie Downer, just relaying my decades of engineering knowledge to help prevent disappointments and wasted time.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bangerjim View Post
    Brass melts at 1,650 to 1,720 °F depending on the alloy

    Aluminum melts at around 1,221°F

    Kindly explain the source of you data about those metals melting/dissolving in molten lead, which melts at only 622°F.

    Thanks.
    I can't speak for Mollyboy, but my go-to resource is High Temperature Corrosion of Engineering Alloys, by George Lai. Your melting point information is useless: as pointed out by Mollyboy and affirmed by the book, the wastage mechanism is dissolution, just like salt dissolves in your soup (at temperatures way below the melting point of salt).

    I don't have data for brass or aluminum, it's all for ferrous alloys, but that data shows corrosion of those materials by dissolution in lead can be significant. Cast iron is apparently particularly susceptible, and the corrosion test sample was completely destroyed in 400 hours of immersion.





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  18. #38
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    So explain with you data books why my 4 Lee casting pots made of steel and are 20+ years old, have not been totally dissolved by my molten lead years ago?

    banger

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    so what is the best valve for a home made smelting pot?

  20. #40
    Boolit Bub
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    Don’t confuse melting with solubility. A couple of examples that come to mind are salt for example it’s melting point is about 1400 degrees yet it is soluble on an ice cube. Or antimony its melting point is about 1200 degrees it will just float on top of lead but add some tin and it will go right into solution. Try melting zinc in a carbon steel pot and you’ll have a puddle on the shop floor. Dig out your metals hand book from your engineering days and you will be enlightened.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check