Titan ReloadingLee PrecisionRotoMetals2MidSouth Shooters Supply
RepackboxInline FabricationWidenersADvertise here

Donate Now Goal amount for this year: 6000 USD, Received: 4685 USD (78%)
Our Annual server fund drive is going on now! This donation drive helps fund Cast Boolits for an entire year, and helps support our 2nd amendment rights! You can donate by Paypal by clicking the DONATE button. Or by Cash / Check / MO to the address below:

Willy Snyder
PO Box 2732
Pocatello, ID 83206
****Due to overwhelming e-mails, I will be very slow in updating this list. Please bear with me!****


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23

Thread: Fluffiest powders( not including trailboss)

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Down under
    Posts
    158

    Fluffiest powders( not including trailboss)

    Funny as it sounds its sometimes interesting to know how which powders fill cases better. Especially small charges of the fastest burners in larger cases( like 44 special). I am assuming there is no 'relative fluffiness chart' out there These are the powders available where I am, thanks for any comments if you know how they compare.( I left speciality powders like trailboss out of this comparison)
    (I used clay and bullseye already but was thinking of trying a few more..)

    1. Clays
    2. Red Dot
    3. WST
    5. Bullseye
    6. Win231/HP38
    7. Universal
    8. Unique

  2. #2
    Some powder tables include a factor like "density per cubic centimeter" or the opposite, "Volume per [weight unit]" but I've never seen that systematically presented and used. It's in _Modern Reloading_ by Lee somewhere but I can't find it immediately.
    No doubt one of the more professionally accomplished among us could point us to a source for that data.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Down under
    Posts
    158
    Interesting, I had not come across it previously

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Down under
    Posts
    158
    Well I started answering my own question by plugging fluffy powders and x vs y into searches and looks like apart from the special powders like tinstar and TB, Red Dot is top of the list.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    farmerjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    St. Francisville, Louisiana
    Posts
    1,496
    I like herco for most of my pistol loads. Most of my loads fill the case near the top.
    There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialismóby vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide. Ayn Rand

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Fargo ND
    Posts
    5,519
    Red Dot can be very good, just remember it is unlikely to cycle a semi auto. .223 ar, 7.62x39, etc. Does fine in the pistol caliber carbines and the pistols.

    I've had some excellent accuracy out of Red Dot in medium to large bores with quite mild loads. 4.6 grains in .357 mag under a 158 gr .359 cast.
    Same for .444marlin and .44mag.

  7. #7
    There is a table in my copy of Modern Reloading by Lee, must be first edition, copyrighted 1996. On pages 162-163 are tables that list powders by their volume in CC's by grain. His description of the table at the top of pg 162 is backwards, but based on the values and how he describes using the table, my interpretation, below, must be right.
    In the table, "fluffier" is indicated by a higher decimal value. For example, Red Dot has a value of 0.14130, and AA#5, which is fairly dense, has a value of 0.06230. The higher number indicates more volume per weight (grain).

    So to use your example from above

    1. Clays 0.14620
    2. Red Dot 0.14130
    3. WST 0.12050
    5. Bullseye 0.10640
    6a. WW 231 0.09310
    6b. HP-38 0.09260
    7. Universal Clay 0.10990
    8. Unique 0.10920

    At least about 1996, WW 231 and HP-38 were not quite the same, unlike now, and Unique was not quite as dense as expected.
    Just FWIW:
    700X is also pretty "fluffy," at 0.13430, but because so little of it is called for by weight, it still tends to occupy little space in the case. With a 250 gr bullet in 45 Colt, in 1996 IMR recommended 6.3 gr for a volume of 0.84609 cc.
    H-4227 is relatively dense at 0.07690, but takes up a lot of space in the case (in handgun calibers, anyway) because the charge weights are so much higher. With the same 250 gr bullet, the Hodgdon recommended starting load for 45 Colt in 1987 was 19.0 gr for a volume of 1.46110 cc.

    I don't have numbers for NaCl, so I can't tell you the volume in CC's for the appropriate suggested grain of salt.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    117
    I'm not near it right now but I believe my Nosler loading manual lists percent case fill for all of it's load data which may actually be what OP is after. Unfortunately the Nosler manual doesn't have much in the way of pistol load data.

    Edit: My Nosler Reloading Guide 8 lists it as "Load Density (Volume)". For a 38 special with a 158gr JHP (the only bullet listed) the greatest load density is a max charge of 5.2 grs of SR4756 for a 56% load density. Second is a max charge of 4.8 grs Unique at 50% load density

    For 44 special, of the listed powders, the highest load density powders are: IMR 4227, Herco, and Unique.
    Last edited by kenton; 06-22-2020 at 08:26 AM.
    quando omni flunkus moritati

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    268
    Crow almost says it, and I think the desired result s case volume as kenton notes, so combining the two you probably want to use the density to calculate the volume required for each specific charge designed to get X for velocity. So a load volume per velocity chart is needed.

    All that said, it doesn't mean the load will perfom well because we aren't looking at burn rates.

    just my rambling thoughts

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Down under
    Posts
    158
    Quote Originally Posted by Crow_Eater View Post
    There is a table in my copy of Modern Reloading by Lee, must be first edition, copyrighted 1996. On pages 162-163 are tables that list powders by their volume in CC's by grain. His description of the table at the top of pg 162 is backwards, but based on the values and how he describes using the table, my interpretation, below, must be right.
    In the table, "fluffier" is indicated by a higher decimal value. For example, Red Dot has a value of 0.14130, and AA#5, which is fairly dense, has a value of 0.06230. The higher number indicates more volume per weight (grain).

    So to use your example from above

    1. Clays 0.14620
    2. Red Dot 0.14130
    3. WST 0.12050
    5. Bullseye 0.10640
    6a. WW 231 0.09310
    6b. HP-38 0.09260
    7. Universal Clay 0.10990
    8. Unique 0.10920

    At least about 1996, WW 231 and HP-38 were not quite the same, unlike now, and Unique was not quite as dense as expected.
    Just FWIW:
    700X is also pretty "fluffy," at 0.13430, but because so little of it is called for by weight, it still tends to occupy little space in the case. With a 250 gr bullet in 45 Colt, in 1996 IMR recommended 6.3 gr for a volume of 0.84609 cc.
    H-4227 is relatively dense at 0.07690, but takes up a lot of space in the case (in handgun calibers, anyway) because the charge weights are so much higher. With the same 250 gr bullet, the Hodgdon recommended starting load for 45 Colt in 1987 was 19.0 gr for a volume of 1.46110 cc.

    I don't have numbers for NaCl, so I can't tell you the volume in CC's for the appropriate suggested grain of salt.

    Thanks for that list! very interesting. Didnt realise clays was the least dense of all, I actually have that on hand.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Monterey Tennessee
    Posts
    1,693
    You can also use a filler material if you want a full case.
    East Tennessee

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

    alamogunr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    3,851
    Several years ago, Junior1942, wrote up a procedure for calculating the volume density of powders. I've got it printed out somewhere but don't have time to look for it right now.

    Also, I think I remember the list that others have mentioned from Lee. It already has these numbers calculated. Junior's write up was fairly detailed in how to use volume density,
    John
    W.TN

  13. #13
    Boolit Master bedbugbilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    MI (summer) - AZ (winter)
    Posts
    3,785
    Interesting - thanks for the post.

    I have never used TrailBoss. Back when the big shortage was in full wing, when the LGS was able to get it in - it was gone before they could get it on the shelf so I just gave up on trying it. I was able to score a 8 round job of Red Dot though and since then, it had been my favorite - I do use Green Dot, Bulls Due and Unique.

    Back to the Red Dot - I have had excellent luck with it out of my pistol cartridges and the largest I load is 45 Colt. It is also my "go to" oowder for reduced cast loads in 30-30 and 8mm Mauser. Maybe ignorance is bliss but I have never had an issue with it in a rifle cartridge in a reduced load as far as powder position in a case and have never used filler and they all went bang with no issue nor any signs of variation in accuracy from one shot to another. I just added 223 to the line up and am looking forward to playing with the RD with cast - BUT - in a bolt gun not a semi-auto.

    I'm going to coy and paste this chart in my reloading notebook - good info to have on hadn't! Thanks!

  14. #14
    Boolit Master Baltimoreed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    542
    I’ve used a ton of Red Dot in my .45lc and .44wcf chambered pistols and rifles but RD, Clays and Clay Dot are more or less interchangeable FOR MY PURPOSES, as a duelist shooting cowboy action. Big targets up close with 200- 250 gr bullets and no mouse pharts.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Luber View Post
    Crow almost says it, and I think the desired result s case volume as kenton notes, so combining the two you probably want to use the density to calculate the volume required for each specific charge designed to get X for velocity. So a load volume per velocity chart is needed.

    All that said, it doesn't mean the load will perfom well because we aren't looking at burn rates.

    just my rambling thoughts
    If you know which powder charge will have the greatest volume, do you really need to know the percentage of the case it takes up?
    Assuming of course you are not overflowing the case?

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,630
    I just ran the math for 45 colt, based on max loads in the Lyman 50th manual. They were all very close, but the bulkiest are red dot and PB, which are very close. 700x and Clays are a close second. I did not try every powder, only these 4 from the manual. These differences are very small, less than the difference in one powder scoop size.

    Lyman 50th, 255gr SWC : 200 gr SWC

    Red dot max 6.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8478 : 6.9 gr, 0.9750
    PB max 7.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8435 : 8.6 gr, 1.0363
    700x max 6.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8058 : 6.6 gr, 0.8864
    Clays max 5.2 gr, Lee scoop 0.7602 : 6.3 gr, 0.9211

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    686
    from the Lee website

    https://leeprecision.com/files/instruct/VMD.pdf

    If you want to calculate the VMD for your particular batch of powder.

    Get a pill bottle, weigh it empty in GRAMS and again full of water in GRAMS. Subtract one from the other. This difference, which is the amount of water the bottle holds, is also the volume in cubic centimeters.

    Fill the bottle with powder, rap it on the table a few times to settle it, top it off, level it off, and weigh the powder in GRAINS.

    Divide the volume (in CC) by the weight of powder (in grains) and you have the VMD.
    Some times it's the pot,
    Some times it's the pan,
    It might even be the skillet,
    But, most of the time, it's the cook.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    I just ran the math for 45 colt, based on max loads in the Lyman 50th manual. They were all very close, but the bulkiest are red dot and PB, which are very close. 700x and Clays are a close second. I did not try every powder, only these 4 from the manual. These differences are very small, less than the difference in one powder scoop size.

    Lyman 50th, 255gr SWC : 200 gr SWC

    Red dot max 6.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8478 : 6.9 gr, 0.9750
    PB max 7.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8435 : 8.6 gr, 1.0363
    700x max 6.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8058 : 6.6 gr, 0.8864
    Clays max 5.2 gr, Lee scoop 0.7602 : 6.3 gr, 0.9211
    Red Dot and IMR PB were my go to powders for ordinary 45 Colt loads. I got interested in the subject of powder density (or otherwise) as a result of PB being discontinued.
    That's what got me interested in Solo 1000 and Solo 1250 (also discontinued), as they were single based, fluffy powders, as PB was.

  19. #19
    Thanks for finding a file. It had to be out there somewhere!

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Finger Lakes Region of NY
    Posts
    970
    Yep, Red Dot is a great all around powder. I shoot trap twice a week and it's my powder. Makes for nice light loads in my 45-70, and gives a good fill in my voluminous .45 Colt cases as well.

    Don
    NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check