Stevens "Favorite" 1915 type model 17 project.

[Chev. William]

A short while back I purchased a Project rifle from a poster on these forums. it was presented in a "WTS" post as follows:
"

For sale is a J. Stevens Model 17 .22 LR Project Rifle with New Octagon Replacement Barrel. We picked this up a long time ago and acquired a new 24" octagon blank from Brownell's to rebarrel but never got to it... Despite it's outward appearance, the action is exceptionally tight (reason for buying it) and the trigger is very crisp for the genre. The 20" 1/2 octagon 1/2 round barrel could be relined. We did many of these for other people but never took the time to do this one for ourselves.

Price for the rifle and the octagon barrel blank is $150 shipped. We can accept only a Postal Money Order or Cash, and we try to ship within 24 hours of receiving payment. First "I'll take it" here followed by a PM gets the rifle. We'll send along another used buttstock with the rifle.

Thanks for looking!

Click image for larger version. Name: 2004-01-01 00.50.52.jpg Views: 88 Size: 54.2 KB ID: 262508 Click image for larger version. Name: 2004-01-01 00.51.31.jpg Views: 82 Size: 57.0 KB ID: 262509 Click image for larger version. Name: 2004-01-01 00.51.04.jpg Views: 63 Size: 50.2 KB ID: 262510 Click image for larger version. Name: 2004-01-01 00.51.39.jpg Views: 66 Size: 54.1 KB ID: 262511 Click image for larger version. Name: 2004-01-01 00.51.59.jpg Views: 66 Size: 51.7 KB ID: 262512 Click image for larger version. Name: 2004-01-01 00.52.38.jpg Views: 95 Size: 20.4 KB ID: 262513 "

For the price of $150 via USPS MO and my local State of California Gun Shop Taxes and Transfer Fees of $122 plus the cost of the MO and a ten day wait to take possession from my LGS (total cost about $274), I get a 'rusty old single shot rifle with a Taped wrist Butt stock plus a replacement Barrel Blank and a replacement butt stock.

I have the blank barrel and replacement butt stock in my hands now but must wait until June 20th to receive the rifle.
The Blank is full octagon ~24" long and ~.760" across the flats. with an aged brown surface coat of fine rust. one end shows fresh saw cut at a slight angle while the other end is the basic brown rust color.. The bore appears clean but not at a high polish shine, with multiple fine lands and a clockwise rotating twist.

The Replacement butt stock is a 'dark hardwood' (died Red Oak?) in color with fairly wide spaced growth rings, about 1/8" spacing, that feel raised on both sides of the stock. it is inletted like most "Favorite" stocks and shows used screw holes for butt plate and tang screws, with the top butt screw hole cracked toward the top in two places (to be glued and clamped) and both tang screw holes double drilled, top tang holes about 3/16" apart, with the bottom tang holes abutting. These will need filling and redrilling.
Will the inletting fit the rifle action? That is to be determined in the future, but I have my doubts.

As the rifle 'finish' is fine rust at the time, it will also need to be refinished, possibly via 'rust blue' conversion process?

As to the barrel and forearm that is the 'original' they also will need refinishing.

Now the "Favorite" came with a slip in barrel held in place by a single clamp screw working in a 'hole' in the barrel tenon bottom. The receiver has a roughly .660" diameter spigot hole that is shaped outside like a half octagon of about 1" width this MAY have enough 'meat' to allow threading a short distance at the front end with either 32TPI or 40TPI threads to emulate its bigger brother, the model 44, action arrangement.

The octagon blank seems to have enough 'meat for this.

The original barrel would need to have an exterior 'sleeve' added to take threads or just left as original and have a reduced bearing length in the receiver. original tenon length is about 1-1/2 " so using a 1/2 inch of thread would leave a bearing length of 1" in the receiver.

I am figuring on converting the receiver to a Center Fire via a replacement of the Breech Block with one from my stock of spares, along with a lever and link to make a reversible RF/CF conversion action.

My understanding of the "Rust Blue" process is the metal first is kept in a high humidity cabinet (steam cabinet?) until a fine red rust coat is present then it is Boiled in pure water in an iron container until the
Red Rust is converted to Blue-Black Iron Oxide.
Once the conversion is complete, the surface is rubbed to remove the none adherent oxide leaving an adherent blue finish.
I believe this process is repeated until the desired thickness and color is obtained.

Alternatively, I could thoroughly clean the metal and have the parts commercially blued via my LGS.

I am thinking I can have a convertible single shot rifle in .22LR, .221 Atkins CF, .22Ladybug CF, and .25ACP CF using interchangeable barrels and Breech block-link-lever assemblies.

Chev. William

[pietro]

.

FWIW

In both my and Mr. Single Shot's (Frank deHaas) opinion, the Stevens Favorites are too weak for a CF conversion, and "iffy" for .22WRM.


.

[ulav8r]

I have a favorite project rifle that needs to be relined or re-barreled. Based on the wear of the internal parts, I would consider it barely adequate for HV 22 LR. If it were made from good quality steel, properly hardened, it might be adequate for your listed cartridges.

[uscra112]

They do just fine converted to .32 Long Colt centerfire. Mine does, anyway. I won't do .32 S&W because some factory ammo has been seen to be loaded to 18,000 psi, which is about triple what the action is good for. I used a .22 LR breechblock/link/lever set for the CF conversion, keeping the rimfire BB/lever/link assembly intact so it can be returned to original any time.

The highest bolt thrust of the cartridges they sold the 1915 Favorite for is about 500 - 550 lb. If you want to do any of those micro-centerfires, calculate backward from that to determine what peak pressure would be, and judge for yourself whether it's worth it. By my back-of-the-envelope calculation, it won't be. The larger head diameters would force you to keep pressure well below that of a .22 HV round, or risk overloading the link.

That frame was used with a threaded-in barrel for a "Ladies Model", chambered .25-20 Single Shot for a very short time. I'm sure they found that the link couldn't take it. (Black powder .25-20 figures to about 900 lb. at the breech face.)

A much better choice for fiddling with more energetic rounds is the Hopkins and Allen 9xx series. A true falling-block, and they can be fitted with a threaded-in barrel. Change from RF to CF involves swapping just the link. The receiver is still just malleable iron, though. I did one for .32 S&W in the bad old days before I knew about the existence of that high pressure ammo. I keep all my .32 Colt/S&W loads just subsonic.

[Chev. William]

Hmmm.
I am guessing some readers equate "CF" with "High Pressure Rifle" only and did NOT read the cartridge listing through.
Repeating:

.22LR - which is a RF cartridge of about 23,000psi Pmax MAP.

.221 Atkins- which is a Wildcat .22LR equivalent CF made from a obsolete 5,5 Velodog case back in 1935, now formed from swaged down .25ACP cases or similar diameter swaged down 5.7x28 or .22 Hornet cases cut down to length. Also around 23,000-25,000psi Pmax MAP.

.22 Laaybug - a CF Wildcat Cartridge made from .25ACP swaged down cases and .219-.224" diameter bullets. It can also be formed from swaged down 5.7x28 or .22 Hornet Cases cut to length. This cartridge is CF and is typically loaded to 25,000psi Pmax MAP or less ( the original user loads subsonic for use in suppressed rifles for Urban varmint control).

.25ACP is a PISTOL cartridge of about 25,000psi Pmax MAP and has a .307" max rim diameter. Note also that .25ACP and listed dimensions of the .25 Stevens RF cartridges are similar and the .25ACP fired in a .25Stevens chambered rifle barrel yields about the same MV and energy as the .25Stevens (Long) RF cartridge as reported in contemporary literature.

All of the above cases have rim diameters that are comparable and are loaded to similar chamber pressures so where did the worries of high bolt face thrust come from?

Chev. William

[pietro]

Hmmm.
All of the above cases have rim diameters that are comparable and are loaded to similar chamber pressures so where did the worries of high bolt face thrust come from?

From Frank De Haas, aka Mr. Single Shot.

It's not only about bolt face thrust, it's also about the malleable iron actions/breechblocks and the internals not being particularly strong, which will result in the action shooting loose shortly with CF, unlike with RF rounds.

You said much the same in a previous thread here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-action/page2


.

[Scrounge]

Hmmm.
I am guessing some readers equate "CF" with "High Pressure Rifle" only and did NOT read the cartridge listing through.
Repeating:

.22LR - which is a RF cartridge of about 23,000psi Pmax MAP.

.221 Atkins- which is a Wildcat .22LR equivalent CF made from a obsolete 5,5 Velodog case back in 1935, now formed from swaged down .25ACP cases or similar diameter swaged down 5.7x28 or .22 Hornet cases cut down to length. Also around 23,000-25,000psi Pmax MAP.

.22 Laaybug - a CF Wildcat Cartridge made from .25ACP swaged down cases and .219-.224" diameter bullets. It can also be formed from swaged down 5.7x28 or .22 Hornet Cases cut to length. This cartridge is CF and is typically loaded to 25,000psi Pmax MAP or less ( the original user loads subsonic for use in suppressed rifles for Urban varmint control).

.25ACP is a PISTOL cartridge of about 25,000psi Pmax MAP and has a .307" max rim diameter. Note also that .25ACP and listed dimensions of the .25 Stevens RF cartridges are similar and the .25ACP fired in a .25Stevens chambered rifle barrel yields about the same MV and energy as the .25Stevens (Long) RF cartridge as reported in contemporary literature.

All of the above cases have rim diameters that are comparable and are loaded to similar chamber pressures so where did the worries of high bolt face thrust come from?

Chev. William

Pretty sure it's called "invalid assumptions." I've been reading the data on the 32 (short) RF and 32 Long RF cartridges, and their centerfire equivalents, the .32 Colt Short and .32 Long Colt. Not to be confused with the .32 S&W Short & .32 S&W Long (which have very similar specs, btw.), .32 Colt New Police and other similar cartridges. Same bullets, same powder loads, should give the same pressures and velocities. I don't have the means to actually check pressures, aside from inspecting fired cases and primers/primer pockets, but I do have a chronograph to check velocities with. I don't like the word "should" for stuff I'm holding next to my face when I'm touching it off, but I'm pretty confident that if I don't use powders that are too easy to double charge, I'll be fine. And I'm still going to take precautions until I have inspected those cases and primers and primer pockets. I'm crazy, not stupid. (despite some other people's opinions!)

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I had two Steven's Favorites and after shooting them I began to think they were never really meant to handle modern 22 rim fire, especially the Mini Mags. I sold both.

[uscra112]

There is not nor has there ever been .22LR rimfire ammunition loaded to 23,000 psi. The 1915 Favorite will withstand typical "High Velocity" ammunition pretty well, but that is loaded to just 14,000. Do the math!

[uscra112]

I had two Steven's Favorites and after shooting them I began to think they were never really meant to handle modern 22 rim fire, especially the Mini Mags. I sold both.

If you had 1894-style Favorites, they weren't! The original Favorite was designed before smokeless rimfire ammo even existed. The very reason the 1915 was designed was that the toggle link in the 1894 loosened up quickly when the little gun was used steadily with Standard Velocity smokeless, never mind High Velocity, and users weren't happy. The key change in the 1915 is that the link is 60% wider, but even so, DeHass strongly warned against modifying Favorites for .22 Magnum, (which is actually loaded to about 19,500 psi, regardless of what the SAAMI max pressure spec says).

It's a matter of longevity, in the end. A tight Favorite won't explode in your hands if fired with hot ammo, but it will get loose pretty quickly, and the looser the headspace gets the greater the chance for unpleasant events. Therefor centerfire conversions have to be limited to ammo producing no more than about 500 lbs-force, unless user accepts that the rifle will need more frequent rebuilds. Which begs the question of whether micro .22 centerfires are worth it. Aside from the fun of doing it, performance can't be much different from .22 LRHV cartridges.

n.b. MiniMags are no hotter than other common 40 grain HV ammo. Not that I don't prefer 'em - they are considerably more accurate and consistent in my rifles than anything else.

[pietro]

.

The problem with converting a Favorite to CF, even cat sneeze loads, is that sometime in the future some innocent may be grieviously harmed when/if they unknowingly fire factory CF ammo in it after the converter/owner loses control of the rifle (sale, infirmity, death, etc).

[uscra112]

As always. Assuming that some Parkenfarker converted one to some commercially available chambering. I won't.

The point remains that some future possessor might not know what a safe load is for the obsolete or wildcat cartridge is.

[John Taylor]

According to SAAMI specs. the 22 LR and 22 mag are both loaded to 24,000 PSI for modern ammo. The 22 short is 21,000 and the WRF is loaded to 19,000. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...2018-06-13.pdf

[Scrounge]

According to SAAMI specs. the 22 LR and 22 mag are both loaded to 24,000 PSI for modern ammo. The 22 short is 21,000 and the WRF is loaded to 19,000. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...2018-06-13.pdf

My 1894 Favorite, with a couple of new screws, seems quite happy with 22 shorts, though it's chambered for .22 long rifle. Was fine with one .22LR Winchester Xpert 22 hollow point. Probably won't be shooting many more of those in it, though. Looking for some .22 CB Long, but not finding any. Cheaper Than Dirt has .22 CB shorts, $10.43 a box, but they want $16 to ship them. I think I'll wait until I can find them locally.

[uscra112]

According to SAAMI specs. the 22 LR and 22 mag are both loaded to 24,000 PSI for modern ammo. The 22 short is 21,000 and the WRF is loaded to 19,000. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...2018-06-13.pdf

That's a maximum allowable pressure spec, John. Nothing on the market is loaded to that. If it were we'd have 40 grain swaged lead bullets leaving an 18 inch barrel at 1600 fps. Play about with it in Quickload and it'll be obvious.

Phil

[ulav8r]

Most of the centerfire cartridges listed by the OP are wildcats, available only by case forming and loading by an individual. A lightly compressed load of Norma R1 under the heaviest bullet available is apt to produce enough pressure to quickly wear out the Favorite action, maybe with only one shot. You can not rely on any wildcat or handload being restricted to any given pressure. Some people even reload with blank powder, which could produce even higher pressures. The R1 example was used because it was the fastest listing on the first burn rate chart I looked at.

You can not rely on any wildcat or handload being restricted to any given pressure. Some people even reload with blank powder, which could produce even higher pressures.

You can not rely on any wildcat or handload being restricted to any given pressure. Some people even reload with blank powder, which could produce even higher pressures.

You can not rely on any wildcat or handload being restricted to any given pressure. Some people even reload with blank powder, which could produce even higher pressures.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I am wondering where the r1 norma comes in as I did not notice that in discussion , who has r1 ? I know I do , but doubt a lot do .
If poster feels its what he wants to do who else does it matter to . If down the road someone buys it they could or should do a search and or have a competent person inspect it and decide for themselves .

Why does anyone say it 3 times ? I can rely on any wildcat or handload I load to be what ever pressure I want it to be , some do reload with blank powder to good success and that means they know what they are doing , when you load or reload you should know what you are doing . Higher pressures and all are what you load whatever you load to , your choice to do what you do or not , if someone wants to do something else then you do make note and move on , your choice to load to what you do my choice to do what I want to .

I have several wildcat calibers and I may choose to duplex or not , and I may use surplus powders or powders not listed for a caliber based on experience and research , do so or not its up to you , but it is my choice or posters choice to do what we do , part of why I do not post on loads here as I have had to many nanny state posts in reply or the nra certified proud to post loaders express their less experience what the nra does not condone or lobby for wayne lepews new suit ideas , so build what you want shoot what you want and the others can go hang with the homies in chaz .

[ulav8r]

As explained, R1 was the fastest on the first burn rate chart I looked at. I have known or read of many people who handload without following reasonable guidelines.

When someone asks what pressure a wildcat develops, it makes me wonder if they have a good understanding of what wildcats are about. I was trying to emphasize that the person using the loading tools determines the pressure, not the caliber being reloaded.

[uscra112]

Right. There are no handbooks for wildcats. Someone coming into possession of one as a legacy or at an estate auction had better be an experienced reloader, or else.

n.b. SAAMI max pressure for .25ACP is 17000 psi. I have no idea whether factory ammo is actually loaded to that, but if it is, that's about 880 lbs-force bolt thrust, which IMHO is well beyond what even a 1915 Favorite can stand for more than a couple dozen rounds.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I see now what your reference was about , Yes R1 is top of most burn rate charts and should be used as all powders with forethought and care , I ended up with some a long time back and norma 202 , price was right , I have always tried to use care and caution in loading .