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Thread: Calibrate Scales

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
    AZ Pete's Avatar
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    +1 1hole. I have a 1010 and a set of check weights that I trust for all powder weighing. I have a cheap electronic that is great for segregating cast bullets and brass, not so good for powder charges.
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  2. #42
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    Normally a "standard" can be traced back to the national weights and measures institute. Weather Gauge blocks pin gauges mic standards weights or volumes standards are traceable to a set standard.

    In manufacturing these standard ISO **** ensures that a part made in one factory is the same as any other made elsewhere or that it fits on other parts made anywhere else. Its how measuring tools are kept the same any where in the world. In a home shop the same mics are used for all measurements so even if off or worn things fit. WHen 2 3 or more mics are used then all must read the same.

    Coins bullets small objects weighed arnt tied to any standard so results may vary ( I have gotten several boxes of 168 grn sierra MK that actually weighed 167 grns). Check weights are tied to the National standard and the known weight is the weight. You can also verify a scales thru the rule of 3. 3 scales all set to weigh an object. Check weights can be made from common materials Aluminum,copper,brass, stainless wires and stock work. DO this with a new calibrated scales and work slow and careful. Different gauge wires cut to length and fled on ends to weight then bend form into shapes for each weight. at about 10 grns you can go to round stock and turn them.

    Good check weights are never handled by hand but with tweezers or forceps as the oils from skin will affect the weights this is cumulative as repeated handling adds to the deposits. Same with the standard for a bigger mic holding it in your hand for 5 mins may increase the length by a .0001

  3. #43
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    You just calibrated three balance scales?
    Open the beam scale pan. There are dozens of small lead weights in there. The beam itself is a fulcrum, has weight on its long axis from the pivot point, and must be counterbalanced at the pan to achieve a true zero. Adjusting these weights is a calibration to zero that scale.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  4. #44
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    I worked building high end dinning room furniture for many years. The lead guys always checked our rulers against each other's or against a known source. Some of the lumber we used was VERY expensive and we need a reference point, we couldn't afford any big mistakes.

    No difference here, bullets, coins and such really give no help unless already verified. Check weights give you a known reference point, otherwise where are you. I want the scale to check the bullet not the bullet to check the scale. A Lyman check weight set is around $50 and answers all your questions. With what I have spent on this hobby it is a small price, wish I had bought them in the beginning.

    Dave
    Last edited by beemer; 06-09-2020 at 01:56 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Yeah, that's the kind of money you have to invest to get a decent electronic.

    btw that Cole-Parmer at the link apparently doesn't read out in grains.
    They spec units as "g, oz, ct, dr, ozt, GN, N, tl T, tl H, tl S, custom"

    GN = Grains

    Looks like a nice scale...Might have to add that to my wish-list.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master 1bluehorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    It's because, as a group, electronic scales are flaky. And they rarely follow a trickler in real time.

    Seems everyone loves their digital scales, at least until they crap out ... and they will crap out! I've been reloading a long time and I've never even heard of a beam scale drifting or quiting unless the user physically damaged it.



    You just calibrated three balance scales? That's very interesting.

    Knowing how balance beam scales work, I have to wonder: How far off were they before you calibrated them and what did you do to them to bring them back into line?
    The RCBS 1500 "trickles" powder quite well as it nears the selected charge weight. And I do use the "McDonalds straw mod".
    I "calibrated" the scales using increasing amounts of check weights. Two of the beam scales would become "off" as the amount of weight increased but were good in the 0-100ish range. Adjustments on the Hornady are made using two "nuts" on the end of the poise and I went through a lot of "gyrations" to get it set. I also made sure the scales were level using, well, a level across the base. The Lyman uses different size shot in the bottom pan. That took a lot of tiny little lead pellet changing with tweezers to get it where I wanted. I also cleaned the poise arms and stoned the edges to make sure all was smooth and sharp. The 1010 took new agates. I spent a few days doing this but it seems to have worked as all three of these scales vary very little through the scale range. Doubt if you want, I really don't care, all I care about it is how they work. The Lyman does seem to get "off" on occasion, not sure why, (?) but exchanging a couple BB sizes fixes it. I do not put a check weight in the pan and then level the scale to the poise with the "foot screw", I level the base first and proceed from there. Using a beam scale I usually use the Hornady instead of the 1010 simply because of set up time of the 1010. I still check the Hornady against the electronic and vise-versa.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Land Owner View Post
    Open the beam scale pan. There are dozens of small lead weights in there. The beam itself is a fulcrum, has weight on its long axis from the pivot point, and must be counterbalanced at the pan to achieve a true zero. Adjusting these weights is a calibration to zero that scale.
    I don't believe that zeroing a scale is the same as calibrating it. Balancing the beam, so that the pointer is zeroed does not assure that when the weights are set at 50 gn, that the pan will actually hold exactly 50 gn. when the pointer settles at zero...
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  8. #48
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    The problem trickling with an electronic scales is the lag time. Once it settles and reads tricking a few grains it takes longer for it to read the change and you over shoot your mark. Depending on the scales .5-1 grn light will allow for this.

  9. #49
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    Calibrate Scales

    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    The problem trickling with an electronic scales is the lag time. Once it settles and reads tricking a few grains it takes longer for it to read the change and you over shoot your mark. Depending on the scales .5-1 grn light will allow for this.
    This is a problem w/ certain electronic scales, not all. In almost all cases you get what you pay for. A common problem that a lot seem to have is drift. Same weight in the pan and the value will continue to rise over time. The question really boils down to, how precise do you need the scale to be?

  10. #50
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    Spot checking for scale accuracy isn't calibration. Nor is zeroing a beam scale calibrating. Zeroing simply sets the base reference point for the maker's existing calibration marks. The maker's beam marks are obviously not adjustable so all we can do is check for the existing calibration to be reliable. I've never heard of an undamaged beam scale being off enough to matter.

    If a beam scale is dirty (dusty) or the beam bearing is damaged it can't swing freely. We can use alcohol, que-stik and toothpick to make the pivot and bearing perfectly clean; that's usually enough. BUT, rough handling can damage the pivot bar's knife edges. Careful use of a hard Arkansas stone, or a very fine grit ceramic file, can remove a few light burrs and - IF you do good work - restore the knife's critical sharpness. That's repair, not calibration.

    Ohaus' type scales have a rough zero beam balance with bits of weight trapped within the pan holder. Other types (Webster?) use a couple of jam nuts on the right end of the beam itself for rough zero. Normally, both rough zero types are a "once and done" factory setting. Both types depend on the user doing a final zero with an empty pan in place and using the screw jack in the left end of the base. (It's not necessary to use a bubble level to set up a beam scale, if it looks level it's level enough.)

    I worked a few years as a precision instrument technician (at second level from the National Bureau of Standards) in the space program and sometimes worked on digital scales; some of them had midrange calibration points across their operating range and those scales could be calibrated.

    On the other hand, balance beam scales are calibrated by the maker putting marks on the beam; there are no calibrating adjustments on them. Any beam that is damaged enough to be out of tolerance gets tossed, not calibrated.

    No reloading grade (Chinese) digital scales that I know of are worth the costs of repairing/calibrating, if one is returned for repair it will just get tossed; if the owner is lucky he'll get a replacement.

    Digital scales are a series of electrictronic "ON-OFF" flip/flop (1 or 0) circuits. Once settled internally the flip/flops are slow to change state due to what's called hysteresis; that's what makes them tend to lag an annoying bit when trying to follow a trickler. And of course they are sensitive to both ambient temperature and line voltage so they tend to drift a bit during use. I don't like that.

    I made a pretty good living for a long time fixing precision electronic measurement stuff because it so often needs doctoring. I do have a small digital scale on my bench for cases and bullets but my powder ALWAYS gets weighed on one of my beams.

    In some 55 years of use, my old M-5 Lyman/Ohaus hasn't changed even a tenth of a grain but I don't think that's an exception for any beam scale; keep a beam scale clean and don't beat it up and it'll work right forever. But digitals .... well???
    Last edited by 1hole; 06-10-2020 at 04:36 PM.

  11. #51
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragon813gt View Post
    You don’t know the weight of them in advance. W/ a set of check weights you know exactly what they’re supposed to weigh before you place them on a scale. W/ coins and such you will have to Weigh them to determine the weight. And you have no way of knowing if the scale you’re weighing them on is correct.

    Another thing to note about check weights is you are not supposed to handle them w/ your hands. Use a set of tweezers. The oils on your hands can change the weights over time. Is this really important for reloading purposes, probably not. But I prefer I to follow instructions.
    This is absolutely true. Many years ago I spent a few man-days restoring a lovely ww1-era laboratory balance, which was easily capable of detecting a single fingerprint! I would use it today, but one reading could take 2-3 minutes, as it has no dampening at all. It could be used to calibrate coins, however. to better than .0001 gram. (Convert that to grains!)

    Dittos, 1hole. Some digital scales are affected by RFI, too. As from cell-phones and even fluorescent lights!
    Last edited by uscra112; 06-10-2020 at 05:41 PM.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Dittos, 1hole. Some digital scales are affected by RFI, too. As from cell-phones and even fluorescent lights!
    Yes, RFI hurts some digital scales and stray electromagnetic fields are common problems for some others. But, ALL (cheep) digital scales are affected by temperature and power voltage changes.

    I've been out of that line of work for a long time so I can't KNOW but I doubt any electronic scale selling for less than $500 has an internal regulated power supply that can self compensate for common temp and power changes. (I once worked with a reloader guy who used an old APS battery powered personal computer AC power-fail safe system on his digital reloading scale just to avoid those potential problems!)

  13. #53
    Boolit Master curioushooter's Avatar
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    I consider a $10 check weight set an essential.

  14. #54
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    1hole and country gent know what they're talking about. Listen to them.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by curioushooter View Post
    I consider a $10 check weight set an essential.
    IF I were depending on a digital for powder, so would I.

  16. #56
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    In a head to head comparison my electronic Denver Instruments MXX 123 blows my RCBS 304 Dial-O-Gram and my RCBS 10 10 out of the water. My earlier electronic scales had the normal issues stated in the posts above.

    I am a big believer in using check weights that are equal to or very close to the powder charge that is being weighed. Certified standards are always the best but the folks that use jacketed bullets close to the approximate charge weight are keeping it real and verifying a safety issue. Yes factory bullets have a tolerance but I have yet to find one more that was more than a couple of tenths of a grain off and most are a lot closer than that. For most applications having you powder charges within a couple of tenths is more than adequate.

    For the OCD types how do you monitor the humidity level of your powder? That does effect weight and burning rate and it does change over time.
    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-need-to-know/

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  17. #57
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    Interesting article. Comments to it are interesting too. Food for thought, but not too deep, I think. Reloading in, keeping powder "dry", and storing rounds in air conditioned space (humidity control) are representative of modern living, but not the varying conditions, dawn to dusk, outside mostly, under which the rounds will be shot. Does humidity make a difference? It assuredly does - on bullet flight long range. Rough handling (some rounds since WWII) is another variable.

    Sorry for the thread drift...
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  18. #58
    Boolit Buddy gnappi's Avatar
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    Weight checking is one area to not scrimp. Scale weight checks are expensive but your face is worth it
    Regards,

    Gary

  19. #59
    Boolit Master Ozark mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnappi View Post
    Weight checking is one area to not scrimp. Scale weight checks are expensive but your face is worth it
    My scale set cost me 41 cents a quarter nickle dime and a penny. Thats all i have ever used and yet my face is still here amazing huh
    Those who would trade freedom for safety deserves neither and will lose both

  20. #60
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    I have tried several affordable electronic scales. The best of the bunch Reads to .01 gr. It does require using the included check weight a lot. Every couple charges I use the check weight to be sure it's still reading the same. On these checks I often have to hit the calibrate button.
    On my beam scales I have a Lyman 1000 and a Lee Safety scale. They are both very accurate and sensitive. On the Lyman I think it was used a lot on the under 20 gr range. The notches on the beam and the ridge in the weight are worn enough so you can't feel them lock in place very well. If you line up the line on the weight to the lines on the beam it reads very accurately.
    I have a set of check weights that I used to verify the accuracy. I can get from .5 grs to 50 grs using the check weights. I wanted some heavier weights to check heavier weights. The Lee goes to 100 grs. The Lyman to 1000.
    For larger check weights I used solder. Add enough to the pan in short pieces till I got the weight I wanted, then put them into a spoon. Melted the solder so I got chunks of a known weights. I made two 50's. two 100's and one 200 grs weights this way.
    With these I could check the scales across the ranges they are capable. On the Lyman the weight did vary a bit across the range.
    On the Lyman I found as you went up the scale it weighed things a bit heavy.The variation wasn't much. With 100 grs of weight the beam read 100 grs. With 750 grs of weight it read 752. At that point the scale read ..0026 % heavier than it should. So I assume that at the 100 gr weight the misreading was roughly 1/7.5 of what it was at 750 grs or .00035%.
    I don't think I could possibly see that small an error in the reading.
    When I set up my powder measure I get the weight set so one charge weighs as close to the weight I want, then dump ten charges I the scale. This weight should be ten times the desired weight. If not I adjust the measure to get the 10X charge to be 10x the desired weight. I then check a single charge weight ten times to see how consistent the charges are.
    If every thing checks out ok I then charge from the measure to the cases. Checking every tenth charge on the scale.
    This has worked for me for many years. In the 22-250 I had years ago it worked well enough to get sub 1/2 groups all day long. Which worked very well for most any varmint I pointed it at. Even small one in excess of 400 yards out.
    Leo

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